406 HDi 90 Died on me

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jjandrj6679
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406 HDi 90 Died on me

Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi there, & happy new year
I'm In desperate need of help, Im a taxi driver and i missed New Years Eve I havn't worked since Xmas. So time is short for me to get it fixed. I am the families sole provider too.

History first:
Lower end/Gearbox engine staberlise bush has gone soft, when I depress the clutch the peddle vibrates. The bush is on order.
An intermitant loud ticking noise on the cambelt side of the engine. Havn't pinpointed it yet.
Just replaced the n/s/r anti roll bar link.
I drove fine, giving over 40mpg round town & 60mpg on long runs.

The problem:
Today it was a bitch to get it into 1st & 2nd but ok on others, when stationary & the cluch on the floor the car still juddered forwards.
I pulled off a rourdabout in 3rd and went for 4th but the clutch went to the foor without pressure. I lifted the peddle with my foot and stayed in 3rd for about 1/2 a mile & pulled into a mcdonalds, just as I turned into the carpark the engine died and I coasted to a halt.

I tryed to re-start the engine but it won't start, it turns over, no engine management lights are on, the lift pump under the back seat seems to be working as I removed the fuel pipe on the o/s of the filter housing and got a steady steam of diesel out of the filter.

I took the top half of the cambelt housing off and the belt looks ok to me, I have no idea how to time this up, do you know where I can download/get hold of some decent data so I can fit a new belt/tentioner?

I even pushed what I thought was the cut off switch down a load of times, (Red cappeed thing mounted on the n/s/f inner stut mount) nothing changed.
I took off the battery for a night & charged it, hoping it will reset the ecu and thow up a code. Nothing changed.

Tryed to tow start it in 3rd, but no start. The cluch resumed normal opperation as well?

I have found the the lift pump & relay works fine, I cracked off a pipe on #1 injector and it pumped fuel for 5 seconds, so thats ok.

I measured the battery voltage it read the following

12.80v All off
11.80v 5sec warm up
12.50v After warm up
10.80v On cranking
12.50v All off rising to 12.65v.

Is the battery knackered, would this be the cause of it all?
The starter motor cranks as its always done for the past 2 years (Fast) Is there enough power to turn the engine over but not enough for the injection system?

MY assumption to the problem:
Diesels don't need electricity to run, but to stop the fuel must be stopped, so am I right in thinking that some thing electrical is stopping the fuel getting thru?
What of the noise in the engine bay, could it be a pump dieing/ Bottom pully (So I've read)? Could the pump die suddenly?
Could the engine have shifted and cut into a wire. Why did I loose pressure on the clutch only to regain it again? Are these Items related?
If the belt had jumped a tooth either way, wouldnt I have noticed some sort of ruff running? It was as smooth as normal, a total suprise that the engine cut out.

Last year when I jet washed the engine bay I killed the EGR valve thing which was disconected by Colchester Diesels, he also said that the Air Temp Sender was reading 10% down but he assured me that it was ok.

I am at a loss, I am capable of doing any job myself as I used to own a French garage till I got divorced. I need this car running asap, so if anyone has an idea I'm willing to give it a go.

What I realy need is technical info like Ohms & Volts Data Stuff thats in the dealers/Bosch workshop manual. Has anyone got any that they can let me read or can point me to web pages? Ive been searching the web for 3 days and found some stuff but its not enough.

Its that time of the year when everyone is fully booked or closed and I have no one but myself to sort this out.
So again any help/info as to how I fault find this or even a web page or two would be the best Christmas pressie I get this year.
Thanks to all of you and I hope the new year brings good fortune to you all.

I look forward to your responces.
Yours
Josh.
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
chili
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Post by chili »

see if this helps in anyway....put your vin number in the top box and press enter

http://www.detali.ru/cat/pe/pe.dll
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jameslxdt
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Post by jameslxdt »

your battery is ok
the problem with the clutch sounds almost certainly like the dual mass flywheel,
regarding the non-start... you need to get the fuel delivery pressure checked and the rail pressure
also take the fuel filter out of its housing and look for tiny metal particles, shine a torch in the housing and they will be quite obvious, this is a sign that your in tank pump is on its way out, providing low fuel pressure
if the cambelt looks in one piece then it is, you will know when a cambelt has snapped, but that noise sounds like the crank pulley is shot, change it asap as they have a bad habit of throwing debris into the cambelt
Peugeot wrote:what are you worried about? we made car that lasted 10 years"..."Zat is very goode non? :|
FAQ - 406 D8 petrol (excl. V6) running and starting problems
jjandrj6679
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Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi there,
Ive just looked up what a dual mass flywheel is, gulp that looks expensive,
What part of it would cause the pedal to go to the floor if this wasn't working properly, you don't think that it could be just a plain old fashioned slave cylinder then? What would happpen if I ignored it for a while, whilst I rebuild my funds. Hummm thats a stupid question....

If the pulley is shot, how can I tell visually/by hand?

I'll let you know what I find with my torch in the afternoon.
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
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Welly
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Post by Welly »

I understood that the 90BHP engine does not have a dual mass flywheel, a telephone cal to the dealers parts dept will confirm this if you give then the VIN no.

The gear selection problem has been on here before, it's normaly a gearbox mounting as I remember, not sure why it cut out though,

Try a look through this:

viewtopic.php?t=1536
Cars in my care:
2021 Kia Spottage 1.6 Pez Turbo Dual Clutch Gearbox Trickery
2013 Renner Twingo - donkey work
turbolag
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Post by turbolag »

jameslxdt wrote: the problem with the clutch sounds almost certainly like the dual mass flywheel,
If it's a 90 as he says, then it doesn't have a DMF - it's a solid 1 piece job for sure.

If there's an engine or stabiliser mount with a soft bush, the engine might not be sitting fractionally quite right, causing an adverse angle for the linkage to work through, hence the stiff as ferk 1st ansdengagement.

The kack starting is likely to be the lift pump - a known failure point on the 90, typically at 100-120k miles. If your lucky you'll get some warning with rough running to warn of its imminent demise, but they often die without warning. Listen for the whirring noise on start up before the engine turns - if it's not there the pump/fuse/relay could be your boy.

Good luck.
jjandrj6679
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Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi all
Being that I'm in a bit of a bad situation here I have searched high & low across the internet and have joined another couple of forums, I hope this does not offend anyone here, but I need all the advice I can get at the mo as I haven't been to work for a week. I happen to stumble upon this on line catalogue http://www.detali.ru/cat/pe/pe.dll
pretty amazing as it gives you all the specks on your car, just enter in the Vin# and a huge list of bits n pieces are displayed, unfortunatly the parts catalogue had some of the pages are missing

Any hows I took the fuel filter out to see what was at the bottom, yes there were a few tiny bits of metal, but be4 I go mad, this is the 3rd Lift pump its had and whos to say that these arn't from the last times. I must admit although I can hear and see that the pump is functional, I do believe that its quieter than normal or is that me picking up on it?

Secondly I found this piece of juicy info to do with the ECU & relay, although its not my car its of the same principal, so I thought that I'd give it a go viewtopic.php?t=1536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
In particular half way down on the 2nd page a wad of info from "bgsats"
All tests where done on the connectors, not the units themselves.

Pin 33 should all be grounded, so check for continuity between these and battery negative. (OK)
Pin 49 should all be grounded, so check for continuity between these and battery negative. (OK)
Pin 51 should all be grounded, so check for continuity between these and battery negative. (OK)
Pin 53 should all be grounded, so check for continuity between these and battery negative. (OK)

Pins 1 should be 0v. with ignition off: ( I got 0.31v) ?
Pins 1 battery voltage with ignition on: ( I got 0.31v) Not Good?
Pins 29 should be 0v. with ignition off: ( I got 0.30v) ?
Pins 29 battery voltage with ignition on: ( I got 0.31v) Not Good
Pins 69 should be 0v. with ignition off: ( I got 0.00v) OK
Pins 69 battery voltage with ignition on: ( I got 12.47v) OK

Pin 86 should be battery volts with ignition off: (I got 12.82v) OK
Pin 86 should be 0v. with ignition on: (I got 12.10v) Not Good ?

Pin 87 should be 0v. with ignition off: (I got 0.19v) ?
Then
Pin 87 o-1v. for 2 secs when ignition is switched on: (I got this readings 0.40v) ?
Then
Pin 87 then battery voltage: (I got this readings 0.20v) Not Good ?

THE BROWN RELAY
Pin 3 should be permanent battery voltage: (I got correct readings there! 12.75v)
Pin 8 should be permanent battery voltage: (I got correct readings there! 12.75v)
Pin 11 should be permanent battery voltage: (I got correct readings there! 12.75v)
Pin 15 should be permanent battery voltage: (I got correct readings there! 12.75v)

Where do the pins that give faulty readings eminate from, whats connected to them.
Can anyone supply me with a wiring diagram?

Thats as far as I got today with the exception that I dismantled the Air low meter only to find that one of the three sensors is broken, whether that would shut the motor down I don't know, although my diesel specialist did say that the AFM was dropped 10% but nothing to worry about, that was earlier in the spring. I have a photo if anyone wants it.
So I'm off to get one of those tomorrow.
As for my flywheel the more I read the more I'm sure its solid, Havn't got to the TDC Sensor yet.

So over to you lot again.
I look forward to hearing from you when I wake
Yours
Josh
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
turbolag
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Post by turbolag »

If your machine has done over 300k miles, you'd be about right to be on your 3rd lift pump by now, and swarf in the filter is the obvious sign of imminent disintigration.
jjandrj6679
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Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi
Right I've just got a call from Graham @ Colchester Fuel Injection.
My car has 5 minor faults & 1 major one. The Camshaft Position Sensor is dead.
So good news, I'll pop down there with a s/h unit tomorrow as my pug dealers hav'nt got one & fit it.
Graham has organized a series of tests for me to perform with a Miltie-meter, so i'll post the how to when I get home, maybe it might help someone else...
Again thanks to all of you, but its not over yet.

Does anyone know if the CPS is the same as other Pugs like the 307, does anyone have the original part number so I can match it up.

Speak to you tomorrow.
Josh
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
jjandrj6679
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Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi there
What a day. So I fitted a Camshaft Position Sensor and then the battery was flat so I had to sort that out...grrr
Jump started it....Nothing
Dragged the car at 25mpg in 3rd & 2nd gear.... Nothing.
So I'm back to square one. Not only have I paid out nearly the last of my money sorting this out, but I havn't worked in nearly two weeks. Grrr. Im starting to loose my mind....
Rannt over..
Any hows I got a basic reading from Graham
Faults logged
0100 - Air Mass Sensor = signal too low
0115 - Coolant Temp Sensor = signal too high
0340 - Sync.Camshaft to Crankshaft = Nothing written
0335 - Crankshaft Position Sensor = Nothing written
1517 - Immobilizer Malfunction = Nothing written
0230 - Electric Shutoff (ELAB) idle = Nothing written

Cleared Faults
0340 - Sync.Camshaft to Crankshaft = hall generator camshaft fault returned after cranking engine.

So there are the faults, Graham said that if I change the Camshaft Position Sensor, the other faults (0340,0335 I assume?) would clear & the car would start .
Well it didn't.
I reset the ECU by this method:

Remove battery terminals & touch together to drain all the power out of the car/ecu
Hold speedo reset button down
Turn on ignition
Hold button for 5 secs
Release button
Turn off
Turn on, display shows spanner for 5 secs
turn off
All done
Any ideas? cos I'm stumped
Do I risk it and buy a Crankshaft Position Sensor.
The AFM & Coolant temp sensors wouldn't stop it from starting, just affect the running, if fact I was advised that the Coolant Temp Sensor, would give me better mpg as it was reading high.
What is an ELAB & is the immobilizer causing it not to start? & how do I find the problem with it?

I'm really lost and really dire need of more help.
Yours
Josh
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
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jameslxdt
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Post by jameslxdt »

with the immobilizer fault it most certinly wont start, most likely its the key at fault
also with the camshaft and crankshaft signal faults it will not start
you need both signals to start, but if one fails while driving it will stay running untill you turn it off

from the fault codes you have it sounds like they have both fallen out of synchronisation, first check output for the crank angle sensor, should get arround 1.5 to 3.5 volts, but you only need 0.5v to start
if this appears ok, check supply and comunication circuit for the crank angle sensor, i dont have a wiring diagram so i cant tell you whats what
if it seems to be ok then the crank and cam sensor's are most likely out of sync

if the crank angle sensor doesnt give the correct readings and the circuit is ok you may have a flywheel problem, or it may be something simple like the sensor is coverd in clutch dust, which is quite possible considering the mileage, the early 1.9td suffered quite badly with this
Peugeot wrote:what are you worried about? we made car that lasted 10 years"..."Zat is very goode non? :|
FAQ - 406 D8 petrol (excl. V6) running and starting problems
jjandrj6679
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Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi there
But my immoberlizer functions normally? would it be a low battery or a new keyfob? If its the keyfob, why wouldn't it start? How do I bypass the immoberliser but keep central locking? How do I find out, pin point what is wrong with the system?
According to a post I found if the CamPS dies whilst running, it'll keep going till its switched off, but wont restart. If its the CrankPS then it will die there and then & wont restart. Hence Ive changed the CamPS & I'm off to sort out the CrankPS now.
Do I unplug it and put a multi meter on the sensor & crank the engine? Is that where I read the Volts from or do I have to tap into the wires to get a readin? am I being thick? Supply I understand, Communication I dont??
Here is a useful URL
http://www.technical-articles.co.uk/Die ... 731C70120/

Yours
Josh
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
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jameslxdt
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Post by jameslxdt »

you cannot bypass the transponder immobiliser so we will not go down that route yet

Image

do this test with the ECU unplugged:

disconnect the crank angle sensor (engine speed sensor on above diagram) check for resistance on the sensor between pin 1 and 2 as long as you dont have an open circuit this is good, keep your multimeter pluged in these pins, switch it to AC volts, get a friend to crank the engine if you get upwards of 0.5v, this is enough to start the engine,

do this test with the ECU plugged in:

pin 3 on the sensor plug appears to be the earth, pin 2 looks like ignition on supply, with your multimeter again check for voltage with ignition on and off between pin 3 and 2, if this shows nothing try pin 3 and 1, you could get anything between 3v and 12v,

do this test with the ECU unplugged:

also check continuity between pin 3 at the sensor plug and pin 101 on the ecu plug
check between pin 2 at the sensor plug and pin 98 at the ecu plug
check between pin 3 at the sensor plug and pin 90 at the ecu plug

where i refer to comunication i mean the signal wires
sorry to confuse you
Peugeot wrote:what are you worried about? we made car that lasted 10 years"..."Zat is very goode non? :|
FAQ - 406 D8 petrol (excl. V6) running and starting problems
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jameslxdt
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Post by jameslxdt »

having just read that site in more detail it doesnt make much sense at all, the wiring diagram does not agree with there test's

i would try there test of the engine speed sensor first as i cannot make sense of there test and the wiring diagram
Peugeot wrote:what are you worried about? we made car that lasted 10 years"..."Zat is very goode non? :|
FAQ - 406 D8 petrol (excl. V6) running and starting problems
jjandrj6679
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:10 pm

Post by jjandrj6679 »

Hi there
I spent all day in the rain and got the Crank position sensor out of the top of the gearbox, Humm its smashed, Now I've been assured that this is a solid fly wheel car so what could have caused it, or did it just explode due to its age 320k?
About a half mile before the car died the clutch pedal went to the floor, I lifted it with my foot and carried on up and down the rev range in 3rd as I didn't want to tempt fate.
Since then I've had 3 tow starts that didn't start the car but I was able to use the clutch as normal.

I'm off to get another CPS on Monday but I'm afraid that it would see the same demise? I'm hopeing that when I get the inspection cover off the bottom of the gearbox there will be nothing to worry about, but I'm not hopeful.

I'll carry out the tests that you laid out and see what I get.

I would love a picture of the bolt holes so that I can re-check the Timing belt if you or anyone has one.

Again thanks for your help so far, & I look forward to sorting this out and getting to work very soon, I can see light at the end of the tunnel.
Josh
406 HDi 90 Estate W Reg 320,000 & still going strong, My 405 made it past 600K so why wont this...lol
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