2.2 HDI timing belt strange issue?!

[min]

Hello everyone,

I need your help in solving an issue I faced during last Saturday timing belt change for my 2.2HDI - 2001 saloon (if there is a similar article on the forum I'm asking an admin to move my thread to the relevant topic): everything was ok during the change and tension setup, I rotated manually the engine twice - I could insert the pins, 10 more engine rotations by hand - again the pins could be inserted and I decide to start asembling everything. I was almost ready with all and right before the final removing of the flywheel pin I had the unfortunate idea of rotating the crankshaft pulley left-right and guess what I found: with the pin in place there was a free play of 3 to 4 teeth measured on the flywheel in the window where you can insert the flywheel locking tool (the one needed when you want to slacken the crankshaft pulley bolt). Unfortunatelly outside it started raining and I had no time to dismantle everything again (early next day I needed the car ) - though at a testdrive I sensed a slightly less powerfull engine (I'm not 100% sure if the power loss is there or not but I have the sensation that in 4th and 5th above 2500rpm it pulls a little 'softer' than before). Except that - the engine sounds OK.
Now of course I will schedule a new intervention to doublecheck the issue and solve (if it really is there) but first I need to find out what is wrong, why the engine can be rotated left-right with the pin inserted in the flywheel. Below I highlighted the 8mm pin hole from my spare engine - it is certain that with the pin 'in' you should barely sense any left-right free play (the flywheel has another opposed hole but it is much smaller in diameter - I estimate 6mm max).

Flywheel hole.jpg

What I suspect is a missing 'plate with hole' (hightlighted in yellow in the picture above) from the flywheel and perhaps the pin goes between the 'shoulders' where the plate with the hole should stay?! This would explain the 3-4 teeth estimated free play of the flywheel - in the picture the width of the plate with hole is almost 4 teeth . If this theory is confirmed, then the only method to properly readjust timing (except changing the flywheel for being able to properly insert the pin) would be to make some signs of the free play on the flywheel teeth and mark somehow the middle of the freeplay and align at the window where you can insert the toothed locking tool (after removing the screw and the small protection plate - see below picture).

Flywheel lock.jpg

Anyway the next step for next weekend will be to remove the screw and protection plate from the flywheel locking window, ask an assistant to slowly rotate the engine and carefully inspect the area with locking hole when it appears in the visible field. Hopefully I will find out if that plate is missing or not and which is the reason why I have that free play with the pin inserted in the flywheel...
Meanwhile if anybody has faced a similar issue - any other details are welcome. Or if there is any other method to make sure the engine is at TDC...

Thanks.

[Doggy]

I had something similar when I changed the timing belt on my first 2.2 406. There was no problem with the crankshaft position, but it was possible to get the camshaft timing perhaps 1/2 a tooth out by not setting the tension equally on both sides of the cam sprocket, (I hadn't loosened the screws hold the cam sprocket to its hub and allowed the tension to equalise).

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I found I could lie under the car and rotate the engine using a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt while observing the tiny bit of flywheel visible in the gap between the clutch lower cover and the engine block. It was possible to see the timing hole in the flywheel before it reached the matching hole in the block. Try this, maybe you can see the relevant part of your flywheel. Consider loosening or removing the lower clutch cover to improve access.

I don't know if this is possible, but maybe you have too much play in the DMF? I think 15 degrees is the maximum permissable play.

[min]

I had something similar when I changed the timing belt on my first 2.2 406. There was no problem with the crankshaft position, but it was possible to get the camshaft timing perhaps 1/2 a tooth out by not setting the tension equally on both sides of the cam sprocket, (I hadn't loosened the screws hold the cam sprocket to its hub and allowed the tension to equalise).

No, I lossened the screws and made the tensioning 'by the book" (based also on your and Jasper5's advice - thanks).

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I found I could lie under the car and rotate the engine using a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt while observing the tiny bit of flywheel visible in the gap between the clutch lower cover and the engine block. It was possible to see the timing hole in the flywheel before it reached the matching hole in the block. Try this, maybe you can see the relevant part of your flywheel. Consider loosening or removing the lower clutch cover to improve access.

That's good news, I hope to have a conclusion in the weekend when I remove again that little cover for timing hole and inspect the area on the flywheel which hosts the plate with 8mm hole in it...

I don't know if this is possible, but maybe you have too much play in the DMF? I think 15 degrees is the maximum permissable play.

I doubt this is the cause - the play creates between the external part of the DMF which is fixed on the crankshaft (on this part of the DMF is found also the 8mm pin hole) and the component of the DMF on which the pressure plate is attached - this part is placed in the gearbox direction.
Anyway if 15 degrees is allowed this is good news for me - the above DMF in the picture that I have as spare I thought is useless since it had a play of ~1-1.5cm (half inch) on the exterior diameter. I thought till now that no play at all is allowed for a reusable DMF but 15 degrees means more than 3cm measured at the exterior diameter?! (assuming at least 250mm DMF diameter if the clutch disk is 242mm based on spare parts catalogue)

[Doggy]

Use that 15 degrees number with caution - I can't remember where I heard it and suspect it could be misleading.

You're almost certainly right that DMF play has nothing to do with any vagueness in the timing position.

[jasper5]

Did you mark the front crankshaft pulley which carries the timing belt?
If you did then you can reference your timing marks there.... you should always mark the crank pulley even if you fit the locking pin.
Looking at your photo the hole you have highlighted looks oversize to me...the other hole 180 degrees away looks more like the locking hole.
Try feeling for the other locking hole and see how the flywheel feels then.

Chances are that if you were removing the pin and decided to rock the engine on the pin that the timing was already set and that you have nothing to worry about...if the engine tickover is sweet then you should have the timing right....from experience when the timing is set a tooth or more out then the engine tickover is poor or bad.
Always, ALWAYS, mark every pulley whether locking pins are used or not, it helps to double check your timing and gives a starting point if anything goes wrong.

[min]

Did you mark the front crankshaft pulley which carries the timing belt?
If you did then you can reference your timing marks there.... you should always mark the crank pulley even if you fit the locking pin.
Looking at your photo the hole you have highlighted looks oversize to me...the other hole 180 degrees away looks more like the locking hole.
Try feeling for the other locking hole and see how the flywheel feels then.

Chances are that if you were removing the pin and decided to rock the engine on the pin that the timing was already set and that you have nothing to worry about...if the engine tickover is sweet then you should have the timing right....from experience when the timing is set a tooth or more out then the engine tickover is poor or bad.
Always, ALWAYS, mark every pulley whether locking pins are used or not, it helps to double check your timing and gives a starting point if anything goes wrong.

Thanks for details.

Yes, I made some signs on the front crankshaft sproket and they seemed alinged to me. Regarding the picture - the highlighted hole is the correct one - 8mm diameter; the oposite one is only 6mm diameter, I don't know what could it be used for?!

The engine sounds very good and the tickover is very smooth, as I mentioned the only worry about the whole procedure is that it seems to me that it pulls a little softer above 2500 in 4th and 5th but, most probably, it's only an impression. Just to be 100% sure I will follow again the procedure - this time I made a tool from a 8-10cm long screw on which is welded a 20cm 'handle' (at 90 degrees angle) - a tool similar to the one OEM. Once the 8mm diameter screw is in, I will catch a strong spring between the handle and gear box or something in the vecinity to make sure the pin remains there (the last time I used a 8mm drill which I inserted in the hole with the part on which it is hold in the drilling machine). Anyway I inspected my flywheel through the window used for locking the flywheel and I noticed that the area with the 8mm hole is ok but it has some signs of pin slip on the metal, that's why I sensed the free play left-right...

One more question regarding belt tension: I saw both in the manual and I also heard a friend of mine who first tension the belt harder than needed in order for the belt to 'stick' better in all the sprokets, crank by hand the engine a few turns and then release the tension to the proper level. They claim in this way they eliminate the risk for the belt to become a little 'weak' after some minutes/hours of functioning (after proper 'seating')?!