Pug's been clocked - help?

[Pohaku]

Hello all - not sure if I've posted this in the right section, but it seems the most apt.

I posted a thread last week - "Puggy Allsorts" ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4465 ) about my used 406 1.9TD that came with a few hidden faults.

I have been going over the paperwork today, and noticed that the first digit of the mileage printed on the current MOT certificate is obscured by a crease and a tear on the paper. (Yes, I know I should have checked when buying... grrrr) - it was sold to me as having 130,000 miles, this was stated in the autotrader advert and of course it is on the car's odometer.

I've used the online MOT checking site, and of course - that missing digit is a 2, not a 1. It's been clocked back by 100,000 miles.

Can anyone give me any advice what to do here? I spoke to the guy the day after buying, wanting a refund because of the hidden faults. He basically said it was sold as seen, so I should get lost. He will no doubt claim that he bought the car in good faith, and didn't know it had been clocked. (I haven't challeneged him on this point, yet).

Does this finding give me any way of getting my money back off this guy?

Any advice here would be much appreciated - I know this forum is more about solving 406 technical problems, but there are a lot of people with a lot of car knowledge here, and I was hoping someone could give me some pointers.

Pohaku

[puggy]

Go back with your mates and threaten to kick the sh*t out of him if he
doesn't refund the money and also tell him you will report him to the police for
clocking if he doesn't cough up

[Welly]

Difficult problem.

How much was the car?

I may be wrong but if the seller has a business selling/repairing cars and 'posed' as a private seller to get rid of a car and clocked it then I think trading standards can get involved?

If it was me I would ring Autotrader and politely explain what's happened and ask for there advice. Afterall you are supposed to declare you're a 'trader' when you advertise with them. They may be able to point you in the direction of some proessional advice.

[Pohaku]

Thanks for responses so far...

I'd like to offer him violence, the mood I'm in - but I don't think that will get my money back!

It only cost £475 for cash - that's why I was happy to buy it with a few known problems, although had I known about the hidden ones aswell I certainly would not have bought it - nevermind the clocking business!

He was listed as a 'trader' on the site. I'm going to contact the AT and see if they can offer any advice. I've a mind to just turn up and demand my cash, but I'm sure he'll just say that he bought and sold it in good faith, and tell me to knob off.

Anyone been here before?

[gRoberts]

It may not have been clocked!

Remember, if a set of Clocks screw up, you have to get some more. Instead of buying new and getting Peugeot to set the right mileage, the person may have got a second hand one from a car with that many miles on.

It should have still been pointed out, but at the same time I can see how it could go the other way.

Either way, I hope you get it sorted.

[philg]

Tell him its clocked to see what he says. Threaten with informing police. Complain to trading standards:

http://archive.nics.gov.uk/eti/020513b-eti.htm

That trader got fined £5000

http://archive.nics.gov.uk/eti/060904g-eti.htm

And that one got fined £25000


AUTOTRADER will take no responsibility.
AND, the term 'sold as seen' DOES NOT stand up in a court of law. Its a pile of balls. It is the sellers (traders in this case) responsibility to check if its been clocked before selling it on so they cannot use the excuse 'it was like that when i got it'.

[eoin27]

It may not have been clocked!

Remember, if a set of Clocks screw up, you have to get some more. Instead of buying new and getting Peugeot to set the right mileage, the person may have got a second hand one from a car with that many miles on.

gRoberts, The mileage data is not stored in the instrument cluster, it is in the ECU. So that theory is out the window mate

What I recommend is that you get your paperwork that proves the bucket has been clocked, bring a few mates round to his place, show him that you know it is clocked and tell him you'll do a lot more than £475 damage to his property if he doesnt cough up. I've done this before over a guy stumping me for wages.(didnt get to damaging anything cos he paid me after) Tried and tested! If they are breaking the law in the first place they will not go to the police

[gRoberts]

I recall seeing on this site, and on other cars that if you use the clocks from another car, then it will show the mileage from the donar car. Thus forcing you to visit the stealer's to get it corrected?

Ah well.. Either way its not right is it!

[steve_earwig]

Cars were always like that, the only difference now is you can't see the mileage on the clock 'til you power it up. I gather with the D9s the mileage is stored on the IBS (?) so not such a headache.

Anyway, any joy with your dodgy dealer? If I were you I don't think I'd fick about, straight down the cop shop - obviously he has fiddled with the mot, tearing off the corner and adjusting the mileage to match is fraud, plain and simple. I'd think he knows where you live too, so don't go down there with your mates (unless you collect house bricks of course). If you do go to the cops and he makes further problems for you the police already know what the score is and you'll have less difficulty having his collar felt for him.

[eoin27]

I'm 100% sure about the clocks from having changed them on my D9 - If that was the case then no one could trust the mileage on their car.

[steve_earwig]

I've never done that anyway!

[mjb]

I'm 100% sure about the clocks from having changed them on my D9

D8s only keep their mileage in the odometer. D9s keep it in both the odometer and some electronic box like the BSI or something, not the ECU. If the instrument cluster is switched, the mileage jumps to the sum of the odometer and BSI/whatever stored values, as has been discussed plenty of times on here

- If that was the case then no one could trust the mileage on their car.

and ECUs are always irreversibly locked to a particular car and impossible to reprogram? The only semi-accurate way to verify a cars mileage is to check MOT certificates since they added records on it.

[Welly]

It is a worry when dealing with dodgy geezers as you don't know what they will do next. They're not normal decent folk like us and if you 'mess' with them then.........

I remember about 15 years ago someone in the company I worked at bought a 405 SRi from a car dealer (now if you recall in the late 80's/early 90's things were good but car crime and ringers were very common) they were having trouble with the car and had it looked at somewhere else who told them it was accident repaired (poorly) and not worth the top-dollar they paid. The complained to the dealer, got nowhere, etc. etc.

Anyway to cut a long story short they heard a bang outside a day or so after their complaint and looked outside to find the 405 in flames, completely burnt out.

Accidental fire? true story.

[michaeljclark]

On the D8 406's the mileage is held in the instrument cluster. I had to change mine last sumer and the donor cluster showed about 5000 less miles than the car had done. Still it was worth it - my speedo and rev counter stopped doing silly things.

But I seem to remmeber someone saying that if you replaced the cluster on a D9 406, you'd get the mileage from the BSI added to the mileage on the cluster and could potentially end up with an intergalactic mileage

[Smelliot]

If the D9's work on the same principle as the 307's, then the instrument cluster will say whicever is highest between the BSI or the cluster. We had some fun with a pair of 307's because of an air-bag light, so we switched the clocks and then both of them had the highest milage of the pair, had to then take it to be re-clocked

I've always wondered on this topic whether the D9 clocks would go into the D8 and which milage would it show? I would just like to have the new 'silver souround' clocks in my old D8 exec to add a nice touch, but would the clocks store milage and would I have to go get her re-clocked to show actual milage because it's not held in the BSI? If I found one with a few K off, it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but then how many D9's would have done 136K?