Oh bugger, Ithink the turbo's died :cry:

[leylandp38]

Hey, I just found this thread... very interesting story as your turbo problems are exactly what I am getting in my HDi 110 (99 V reg).

Did you successfully take the garage to Trading Standards? I found a useful article about the HDi 110 motor which you might find helpful in your case, i.e. to prove they are idiots . Among other things it shows they were talking rubbish when they repeatedly stated they got a turbo boost of "1800 psi"!! This article confirms that I had thought which is that turbo boost is only 14.5 psi or 1 bar. So the garage were over 100 times out and if they were wrong on this I bet they were wrong on your "failed turbo".

See http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109357/article.html - it is a good article.

Did you also ever get to the bottom of the issue? I'd be really curious if you could pinpoint a cause. Determined not to let this beat me.

cheers Al

[Welly]

Pre-injection occurs only if the engine speed is less than 3200 rpm.

Maybe that causes our 'noise'

Good find there fella!

[leylandp38]

I had a problem just like yours which I fixed last week. Reading your post helped me solve it as I knew what you had tested and found not to work, so I then managed to work it out with some help of another forum. Maybe I can repay the favour by helping you get yours sorted now.

Take another look at the vacuum solenoids on the bulk head. I think you said you joined one straight through to eliminate it. This will definitely not work.

You said your car has 3 solenoids. They are all identical parts but have different functions. These would be:
- Grey connector (offside) - controls turbo wastegate (on HDi 110, the HDi 90 doesn't have this one)
- Blue connector (middle) - controls EGR valve
- Black connector (nearside) - controls air pump (some models only, later I think, my 99 does not, my 2001 has it).

The EGR one matters, you'll get pollution faults without it, but the most critical one is the grey turbo wastegate controller.

On the HDi 110 the turbo wastegate is variably controlled by a variety of inputs. The control is managed via the vacuum solenoid. If this is faulty (either stuck open or closed) the turbo will not function properly and the engine will limit revs and power to avoid damage. A typical giveaway is a refusal to rev over 2800 rpm, and sluggishness up to that point.

You cannot remove the solenoid and join the pipes straight through. You can swap the solenoid with another, on the basis that they probably are not both faulty (however in my case they were so this isn't foolproof so don't rely on it). The best way is to test the solenoids and all the connections is to get a hand vacuum tester. I got a Sealey VS402 for £37 delivered - see http://www.ccw-tools.com/ (no affiliation I promise) and you can also use the MityVac tools but these are US made and usually sold from US so delivery will take longer.

With the vacuum tester you can draw a vacuum on the pipe from the solenoid to the turbo (engine turned off). If it won't hold a vacuum then the pipe is leaky. You can also use the vacuum gauge (engine turned on, pipes disconnected) to test what vacuum comes from your vacuum pump to the solenoids (the centre connector on the solenoid) and what comes out the other side (the outer, frontmost connectors). At idle you should get a strong vacuum of about 600 mmHg. When you rev the engine past 1800 or so the vacuum will fall. I did this solo so could not see the rev counter, but I figured they would either work or not, and I was right.

What I did using the vacuum tester test was remove both solenoids and tested them each in turn connected to the turbo grey electrical connector with the vacuum from the engine pump attached, and the vacuum tested on the turbo side. I then revved the motor past about 1800 rpm, and saw the vacuum change markedly on the gauge. The faulty solenoid registered no change, the good solenoid did change. I had a third spare solenoid to test and it did not allow a vacuum at any stage so it too was faulty.

When one solenoid did not change but the other did, I realised that the unchanging one was faulty. I put the good one on the turbo and the bad one on the EGR and the car flew. There was no doubt the turbo was fixed. I then got another from a breaker for £20 delivered and tested it, it was OK so fitted that one to the EGR. I also got him to throw in the vacuum lines off the breaker car and they were a tighter fit so I swapped them too. This made a big difference as I then got higher vacuum readings on the entire system (600 mmHg), and this seemed to make a difference in reliability of the turbo engaging, it has been a bit hesitant now it is every time and very smooth.

I hope this long explanation helps. I don't think a lot of garages understand this stuff as it won't easily show up in diagnostics. I do, sadly, think your old turbo was fine and you were robbed by the garage. Let me know if I am right.

Al

[leylandp38]

Mmm not sure what that would be, mine is older than yours anyway. Would have thought its the EGR valve like you. Is he thinking it could be blocked?

OK, as you have done the valves its not likely to be them (sorry missed that bit, its a marathon-length thread). Have you tested the vacuum pump to make sure you are getting a proper vacuum? These can apparently fail. Again, you need a vac tester for this. Maybe it takes high revs before you get enough vacuum. The same could apply to vacuum leaks.

[puggy]

Well !! and i could get shot for this, supa if you are good at blow jobs you could
give it agood sucking
Other than that do you have a good radiator specialist's near by as they could probably
test it for you, after all thats all it is with air passing through it instead of water

[mjb]

Other than that do you have a good radiator specialist's near by as they could probably
test it for you, after all thats all it is with air passing through it instead of water

I'd imagine that's how they test radiators anyhow - pump air into them while holding them underwater so any leaks are instantly visible by a stream of bubbles

[Longintooth]

Hi
I thought you had this problem nailed down by now - If you have read my comment earlier you would have at least be near to a conclusion. Refresh - check you can physically see the top intercooler pipe expand as you lift the revs - you should see a slight twitch as the wastegate is triggered when the pressure gets to its limit.
That will tell you it's working without any fancy gauges etc. The EGR valve is triggered when the sensors tell the ECU to open it - this has been set to introduce exhaust gas when the parameters assume it may reach a point where NOX will be created - this is when the temperature of nitrogen and Oxygen reach a critical high temperature. Though it may fail an emissions test it is unlikely to cause a drivability problem unless it is stuck open and then it has to fit between a critical pressure difference between the exhaust and inlet otherwise air would be oscillating between that and exhaust. But the first little test will prove that.
The wastegate is a device that limits the flow of exhaust through the turbine to stop it over revving when the rpm is high. It is normally shut for most low rev/power applications so if the vacuum to the actuator is always active your not getting full flow over the turbine - just clamp the vac pipe and watch the top hose - don't leave it like this cos your turbo may over rev. - it's a governor to stop excess and it was designed this way to give fast activation at low speeds but as you will appreciate this will make it spin too fast when your doing 125 mph down the autobahn. The turbine can rev up to 170,000rpm - that's pretty fast don't you think. Also some think it stops the engine performing at high speeds - a myth. But though the engine will rev up to 5500rpm it is foolish to do this on a regular basis.

[Welly]

I have some sad news about my performance....it's gone rather lack-lustre for no reason (even after all that money I've just spent).

It boosts but not as we know it and gets up to speed ok but not as we know it strangely it's decided it likes to spread it's power over a much wider band like 2100 to 3600 instead of the familier and better 1800 to 2800 mark.

It's also developed a rythmic hmmm, hmmm, hmmm when idleing and a distinct Eeeeeeeeeeeeee from the HP fuel pump area, oh and a werrrrr werrrrr werrrr from the cambelt area

Meanwhile the driver's making a distinct "oh sh*t sh*t sh*t" noise

[steve_earwig]

Oh for gawd sake no (psst wanna borrow me lighter? )

hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, werrrrr werrrrr werrrr? Did you just have a belt changed? (don't remember you saying...) If you did it's too tight.

[rapport25]

Sounds like it. And not a cheap repair either So sorry to hear welly. And everyone else having problems with there pugs. Im at that stage do i get rid before its starts costing me silly money. Im scared hearing what supa and welly have spent recently . I'm thinking Alfa 159 diesel or new shape honda accord diesel if Mrs Rappy allows .

[Longintooth]

Hi
I asked you if you had made the observations - I don't accept a dealer stealer evaluation if they have not cured it. Once again does the hose expand when you pull the revs up a bit - look at the point where the pipe has a bend in it, you will see a small kink in the hose as the wastegate starts to regulate the pressure it will relax in then out when pressure comes back on. If it does this your turbo is fine. The reason I'm sceptical is when someone is testing for hose "implosions" on a turbo intercooler pipe - how daft is that. Further more an intercooler is easy to check - just take the pipe off and feel the air flow if it's blowing through it's working. The cooling cannot be tested stationary so it may feel warm - you could rig up a fan to blow across the core, this will tell you if it does cool but it is a futile test cos it's rare for them ever to block up - I would not say impossible. Another question - is there any oil in the bottom intercooler pipe?

[Welly]

To answer the bits directed at me; I've had the bottom pulley done and the cambelt was done 3 years ago (20,000 miles ago) it's always sounded a bit weird there but I just thought it was the noise from driving the fuel pump etc. it's quiet at idle but can werr at certain revs.

TBH I was sniffing around for a leak as the Diesely smell is back (when it's had a good run) and I noticed these things a bit more but also spotted oil around the bottom of the cam belt cover so hate to think what's going on in there.

One things for sure - it aint getting seen to yet

[mjb]

I have some sad news about my performance....it's gone rather lack-lustre for no reason

Check the 'spam' folder on your email client - there's pills that can help with that

[Welly]

You silly boy - go and stand in the corner!

[teamster1975]

You lost some posts Welly? I could swear you were over 5000!