406oc.co.uk

Hi all,

I have done a quick search but found nothing that looked helpful but if I have missed any threads please just point me in the right direction.

Firstly a little background:


Our family car is a 1999 406 HDi 90 Est which has covered nearly 200,000 miles. I have owned her for about 6 years and she has been serviced regularly and sympathetically, ie brakes changed before they grind metal on metal, etc. Generally she is in very good condition, virtually rust free and runs nicely. Last week whilst driving my eldest to school I noticed a very faint knocking and was straining to hear it when the engine cut out completely. It didn't make any noise,just cut out and wouldn't start at all, it turned over but no ignition. I called out the AA and the patrol-man didn't like the sound of it turning over so I was towed to my local dealer for them to check it out. Later that day I was informed that the cambelt had slipped and there was serious engine damage. They, the garage, had stripped the cam cover off and told me that all 8 rockers were broken, the bottom pulley felt loose and they could not rule out any piston to valve contact, in fact they said that with all the other damage it was very likely. At this point I told them that the engine was not worth the £1,500 plus bill they were looking at and collected the car. I was going to strip it and try to sell the parts when I noticed that HDi engines were not expensive and so I decided to try a swap. A good friend of mine has a large garage with a 4 post lift and he said I could use his space for a while. I did a little investigation online and the best advice I got was to stick with a 90 and get the same engine code (RHY) as mine to simplify everything.

So we are now in the situation where I have bought a 87,000 mile engine from a 1999 306 and am waiting for a friend to pick it up. I have stripped the old engine and gearbox out of my 406 and degreased and cleaned the engine bay. Currently, then, I have a 406 Est up on a ramp with no engine, a broken engine and gearbox sat on the garage and an engine, hopefully, on the way.

That's the situation so here are the questions:

1. Is the advice I have been given, and my proposed pathway, a good one?

2. Whilst trying to get the lower ball joints off to release the driveshafts I managed to split both rubbers so will need to replace them both, when I know that the new engine works, but I notice that they are a screw in fitting with a "special" tool. So how easy is it to get or can I borrow it from somewhere?

3. What should I be looking at changing at changing on the new engine as a matter of course? I was thinking of changing all the belts and tensioners as well as the water pump.

4. Any other advice?

All comments welcome and I am sure that I will have lots of questions as I proceed.

Many thanks,

Jon

Hi, welcome

The rockers on the HDi are designed to break to avoid piston/valve damage, I would have fitted new rockers, new bottom pulley, timing belt and water pump kit.

Anyhow, you are where you are...I would make sure all the engine mountings fit properly as you are fitting a 306 engine (never done this, so don't know if they are a straight swap).Replace the lower engine mount as it is easy to do whilst the engine is out, also the top mount. Personally, I would fit a new clutch as well, along with new driveshaft oil seals on the gearbox.

Regarding the bottom ball joint rubbers...I assume you managed to remove them from the lower arm, but damaged the rubber using the fork to release them? If so, just replace the rubbers, again, to other folks hoping to remove the driveshafts...Do NOT remove the ball joints, remove the nut and bolt at the bottom of the strut and knock down on the hub to remove the strut, allowing the driveshaft to be removed safely without damage.
Replace the alternator belt and check the belt tensioner for wear.

Good luck with everything.

The garage said that they thought that piston to valve contact was inevitable! Still the engine code of the HDi is the same as mine so it should be the same block, or so I am lead to believe.

Hi there! Hmm, this would be OK Corral Auto Services? Valve contact is inevitable but valve damage is not, that's what the followers break for. Didn't they even bother to do a compression test?

I've no idea if the engine is the same and Peugeot's online parts system is on holiday today, I don't know if you need this information right now or can wait for it to sober up on Monday. You could always sell it on anyway, and then investigate your old lump. Btw cam followers are 12 quid a piece on ebay.

jasper5 wrote:new bottom pulley

Oddly enough, if it's loose then probably this is what took your engine out - when the bottom pulley fails it drops the alternator belt which gets into the timing belt covers and knocks that off the pulleys. It's a common weak point that should be changed with the timing belt. HDis do it a lot but usually the followers take the brunt of it and the engines survive.

Steve is correct, the valves have already hit the pistons, that's why the rockers broke...they broke to stop valve and piston damage.

No the garage is not that quoted, it is a very large chain around this area, not sure about the name and shame policy so will not name it here. I was told that the bottom pulley being loose would mean that internal wear and tear had damaged the crank and the play was probably a worn damper inside the case. The garage also quoted nearly £30 for each rocker without labour so you can see why on a 200,000 mile engine I declined their repair offer! So what tests should I do on my engine or should I fit the lesser mileage one?

As for the ball joints I damaged the rubbers when I was trying to get the bottom wishbone off the ball joint. The ball joints are still attached to the hub, I cannot remove it a I don't have the correct tool.

Thinking a little the last job that I had done on the engine, about a month ago, was a new alternator. I guess that the stress of a new belt correctly tightened caused the pulley to let go and do all the damage.

Looking at the engine out of the car I am not sure how you go about changing the belts without taking it out anyway so I guess I have not lost anything even if I end up putting my old engine back in.

OK Corral - cowboys? No?

I suppose best would be to take the head off and have a squint, although a compression test would tell you a lot. If you decide it's good enough you'd only be doing stuff to it you'd need to do to the new one so you won't have lost anything. Apart from taking the damn thing out of the car but it makes changing the other stuff so much easier - timing belt, clutch, rear engine mount - you'll probably save time over all. Not sure about the pulley damaging the crank, they seem to be a bit of rubber sandwiched between the two halves which fails and separates so I can't see how. Unless the bolt really is loose... This bolt is supposed to be tight so you might have a job undoing it with the engine out of the car. Then again you should be able to find a way of jamming the flywheel.

Edit: nah, the pulleys fail because they just aren't up to the job That's why it's best to change them with the cam belt.

I did hope that the garage would do a compression test and a leak down test. I didn't push the issue as i thought that the engine was a write off from what they told me. Is it possible to do compression and leak down with the engine out of the car?

I don't see why not, all you need to do is get power to the starter motor and a flylead to engage it, but I'd wait for Jasper 'cos he probably knows better than wot I duz

Personally, I would stick with the engine swap, but do the replacement of the cam belt, pump, pulley, clutch, etc.Mainly because of the lower mileage.
As the engine is out of the car you could take off the head and check the valves and pistons, maybe you could put it back together with new rockers and sell it on, if all looks good.

I would never argue with Steve's knowledge of 406s' he knows much more than I do about them.

Are you extracting the micturation there?

No! I'm serious.

Back in Service Box, there are different part numbers for exchange engines but I can't figure out what the differences are, apart from there seems to be a different head on earlier 306s

Incidental, a search on the crank (0501k7) brings up 405 - XUD7TE

You can't do a compression test until you fix the cambelt, camshaft, rockers etc. the garage are correct to assume that the engine is damaged through valve interference and i'm not surprised at the quote as it's a big labour job at £55-65 per hour.

It is true though that, firstly, the cam-cap bearing on the end of the camshaft will snap and then the rockers give way so it kind of saves itself from serious damage (although the lower the engine speed at the time the better).

Since your half way there then maybe you could make one decent engine from the two? changing the cambelt and water pump is a good idea whilst 'on the bench' as is the engine mounts if they're perished. Changing the clutch and main crank oil seal if it's leaking and any other leaks are all good ideas whilst the engine's out.