More Power!

[niz406]

Your right on the Oxygen sensor but this is where the FSE PBV comes in, as long as you buy one with the guage you can change the pressure to your own needs...

Map sensor can be ermmm modified to allow extra pressure and the inlet manifold can be swapped out you can get another from a scrappers ! Its very doable ! not sure why you've not used your T2 ???

[jameslxdt]

Your right on the Oxygen sensor but this is where the FSE PBV comes in, as long as you buy one with the guage you can change the pressure to your own needs...

Map sensor can be ermmm modified to allow extra pressure and the inlet manifold can be swapped out you can get another from a scrappers ! Its very doable ! not sure why you've not used your T2 ???

i bought it for my old diesel which died, and never botherd to do anything with it, basically coz i cant be arsed

how would you go about modifying the map sensor?

just realised the car runs without map sensor connected and without putting the engine light on

[niz406]

Is yours external hard wired or is it mounted in the ECU ?

Whats your engine code / ECU type ?

[jameslxdt]

the map sensor is bolted into the bottom, at the back of the inlet manifold

engine xu10j4r L3 RFV

bosch motronic mp5.2

[niz406]

Your MAP sensor calculates internally and sends the required signal to the ECM, the signal is based on voltage strength.. so a variable resisitor inline with this could adjust the signal and stop any errors

• Pin 1 MAP - 12 ECM

Reference Voltage

• Pin 2 MAP - 26 ECM

Sensor Return

• Pin 3 MAP - 7 ECM

Signal Voltage

TBH if you dont do it properly it will probably return faults or will cause your car to run like a bag of shite ! lol

[jameslxdt]

TBH if you dont do it properly it will probably return faults or will cause your car to run like a bag of shite ! lol

it runs like a bag of shite anyway

well from cold it does, its like its running on 2 cylinders

[Malachy]

the stock engine management is crap and would never work with it, the ignition timing and injector duration will be all wrong, it will log a map sensor fault and most likely an oxygen sensor fault the first time you hit boost

correct most of the bosch n/a map sensors only read upto 105kpa( a little over atmospheric pressure (100kpa or 1bar whatever ya like), you cant just swap around map sensors as they have varying values at varying voltage outputs you might get lucky and find a map sensor that is plug and play but i very much doubt it this would mean a new map sensor + remap to just get things running safe :p not quite so plug and play
you dont want to start "messing about with sensors" just to get them to read things you want especially if your going to be running a High compression engine turbocharged on stock internals recipie for disaster tbh. you could probably solder in an aftermarket MPx4250/6250 map sensor the 4250 will read upto 250kpa giving you about 1.5 bar of boost, before it stops taking any readings. the 6250 is 350kpa.so for this application a mpx4250 will suit since you wont need anymore than 1.5bar boost in fact you probably wont need half of that
i can obtain these for about £10

i guess if your handy you should be able to modify the map/sensor values on winOLS with a Ecu Flasher kit, im doing some research on this myself at the moment but it is very complicated.

As for the lambda correcting............
how many times do i have to say


it will not correct the most important part of the map this is because a narrow band can only accuratly measure from 13afr>15afr at a push, your turbo needs to be running 12.5 afr to keep things sound under boost.it just cant read this anyway take a look at what lambda a narrowband can read.



multiplay lambda x 14.7 to get afr reading,
the narrowband sensor on most cars is predominantly an emissions control device notice how most pre 1992/3 cars even though they had fuel injection did not have lambdas

added to this problem we have of not being able to accurtatly measure afr
The stock narrow band lambda used on bosch/MM ecus only works below circa 3000rpm/below 70% throttle/above circa 75c coolant temp and below about 70kpa map.
outside of the conditions above the ecu goes to a stock map ignoring the lambda reading.aka closed loop your only saving grace could be the knock sensor realising "fk not enough fuel getting knock" and pulling timing off. although it best do this damn quick and damn reliably if you want to keep ya pistons in one piece.

this is why i cringe when i see you advising people to do this :/

yes so far no one has blown there engine but thats more testiment to the strenth of the turbo block than anything else.

"learning ecus" another myth the only thing your ecu learns is what fault codes it has stored/ and usually it will have relearn the acceleration enrichment map (just a map so when you stab the throttle the car wont lean out) / idle pwm/stepper settings, it wont ever change the fueling map as thats hard flashed to the eeprom if it did then why do people need remaps when getting cams etc etc?

[Malachy]

Your MAP sensor calculates internally and sends the required signal to the ECM, the signal is based on voltage strength.. so a variable resisitor inline with this could adjust the signal and stop any errors

• Pin 1 MAP - 12 ECM

Reference Voltage

• Pin 2 MAP - 26 ECM

Sensor Return

• Pin 3 MAP - 7 ECM

Signal Voltage

TBH if you dont do it properly it will probably return faults or will cause your car to run like a bag of shite ! lol

correct yep but the map sensor is also calibrated to send back a vary voltage 0-5v whatever values it is set to, for example
0v@0kpa and 5v@105kpa this is usually completly linear however thus meaning in this case 2.5v whould be 52.5kpa.

this setup your saying about would work fine on an AFM style car (hence why its popular on mx5's although youll still have to work out how to pull timing) but not a map style

[niz406]

You can buy a wideband direct replacement Oxygen sensor from DP engineering, so you can for say £60 resolve that aspect of it.. well and then the addition of remap / piggy bag if you don't want to try it on the stock unit.

However, what your forgetting is that there will be an FSE PBV introducing greater pressure on the fuel rail, this extra pressure means that more fuel will be put in, as a rising rate regulator it SHOULD apply the correct fuel pressure for the manifold pressure present so you would end up with a slightly enriched mixture on this low boost ( 5 p.s.i ) application.. the Oxygen sensor should not be an issue, its the MAP sensor that needs the attention.

As I've said before Knock detection will not be a problem providing you have your thermo-dynamics implemented properly.. i.e. decent intercooler and you keep it low boost, the boost level is key, you will have a minimal impact on the overal heat / load placed on the engine!

Also I don't advise people to do it, I mearly let them know that it is an option, too many people believe that you cannot extract more power out of the 406 without big bucks and I disagree completely, just depends on how much time and effort you want to put into it. Sure you can go filter and zorst, plugs and leads, but what if you wanted something more, even if it is just a small blower on there to help with low end power.

[Malachy]

Wideband again is not plug and play the replacement sensor that dp engineering offer is suited to a wideband controller, you cant just wire it into any ecu. you get sensor>controller>ecu you then program the controller to suit the ecu or vice versa.
the cheapest setup i know of that is any good is the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 its also the most common.i have 2 wideband kits the LC-1 hardwired into my car and a techedge 2e0 i use as a portable device to use in anycar (has a built in afr display).

even when/if you get wideband then you will need a remap/aftermarket ecu to suit, widebands tend to work 0-5v a narow band works 0-1v this wont be plug and play

As I've said before Knock detection will not be a problem providing you have your thermo-dynamics implemented properly.. i.e. decent intercooler and you keep it low boost, the boost level is key, you will have a minimal impact on the overal heat / load placed on the engine!

you do know how much timing you have to pull as soon as you go into any sort of posative pressure?
heres a little xls sheet i use for working out a base timing map (of course it needs editing to suit the torque curve) but its a very good starting place.you say about 5psi max/30kpa so that means your looking to need to pull about 5 degrees of timing to be ok.

http://www.aoxv99.dsl.pipex.com/Ignitio ... p_v106.xls

im not saying dont do it, im saying its not as easy as bolt on,especially if you want it to last.there also things like turbo oil supply and coolant to think of so that means getting someone who can weld to mod the sump

if i ever get my head around winols ill happily work out a map myself that will suit it pulling the timing as needed, and if i can grab a volunteer ill run them down to my mates rolling road and we can get a basemapsetup, then all people could do is throw me there ecu and ill flash it.

However this is subject to me getting my head around Winols i havent had much time recently to look into it but will be soon

ps.
i am actually planning to offer something similar with custom manifolds/map sensor and modded ecu in the future for a range of cars that will be pretty much plug and play

[niz406]

Wideband again is not plug and play the replacement sensor that dp engineering offer is suited to a wideband controller, you cant just wire it into any ecu. you get sensor>controller>ecu you then program the controller to suit the ecu or vice versa.

Dude I did say and I quote:

well and then the addition of remap / piggy back if you don't want to try it on the stock unit

By stock unit I was refering to standard OS:

• 0v - 1v

• 1.0volt - constant WOT

• 0v - Fuel cut-off

• 0.4v to 0.5v - Ignition On

• 200mv to 1000mv - Engine running

• 1 Second Switching Frequency

Well its actually going to be about 5 p.s.i / 33.5kpa but 5 degrees, w0w I wish it was as easy as a turn of the distributor, oh well not that would be easier, much easier on old MFi engines !

However, For a given high compression engine at engine speeds greater than idle optimal ignition timing is quite close to the point of onset of knock. Running so close to this point means that knock will inevitably happen on one or more cylinders at certain times during engine cycles. The MP5.2 ECM has a knock control unit internally, and a knock sensor( KS ) on the block to help prevent knock.

Initially, timing will occur at its optimal ignition point, once knock is identified the knock control microprocessor retards the ignition timing. When knock ceases the timing is advanced until the reference timing value is achieved or knock occurs once more when timing is again retarded. This procedure continually occurs so that the engine will run at the optimum timing. If a fault exists in the knock control processor an appropriate DTC will be logged in the self diagnostic unit, and the ignition timing retarded by the LOS Program. Which is obviously not a good thing.

But if temps are kept down and mixture is optimal and the MAP sensor addressed then there shouldn't be any major differences in knock, should there?

Isn't the sump alloy on that block? if so a screw in union will do... simply drill, tap and away you go! The kit will come with all new unions and connections, well except intercooler and hardpiping!

Winols.... yeah good luck with that one, not the easiest of applications, deffo expert user software.... lol

Ahhh so soon you will be supplying us all with solutions and bolt on packages and upgrades? With great discounts....lol Hows about a free set up for my motor for shows and demo's and open days at your unit? lol

[niz406]

OK I just read what I put to you in response and I can't believe I put that whilst talking to you.... oh well at least the others might understand it better

[Malachy]

Wideband again is not plug and play the replacement sensor that dp engineering offer is suited to a wideband controller, you cant just wire it into any ecu. you get sensor>controller>ecu you then program the controller to suit the ecu or vice versa.

Dude I did say and I quote:

well and then the addition of remap / piggy back if you don't want to try it on the stock unit

By stock unit I was refering to standard OS:

• 0v - 1v

• 1.0volt - constant WOT

• 0v - Fuel cut-off

• 0.4v to 0.5v - Ignition On

• 200mv to 1000mv - Engine running

• 1 Second Switching Frequency

i havent seen any controllers able to replicate what your wanting there, although to be fair i havent looked wideband can replicate a nb signal but that still does not give you afr problem you will have, and i still think a raising rate fuel reg is in all honesty a bit of a cowboy way of dealing with things, it still needs setting up correctly on a rr monitering afr etc.

Well its actually going to be about 5 p.s.i / 33.5kpa but 5 degrees, w0w I wish it was as easy as a turn of the distributor, oh well not that would be easier, much easier on old MFi engines !

ok must be impossible to pull ignition on non dizzy engines, ...................................... and yep about 5 degress less at 130kpa than the equivilent load/rpm site at 100kpa is about right for that boost aplication got fk all to do with mfi engines dont know what clap trap your going on about there.

However, For a given high compression engine at engine speeds greater than idle optimal ignition timing is quite close to the point of onset of knock. Running so close to this point means that knock will inevitably happen on one or more cylinders at certain times during engine cycles. The MP5.2 ECM has a knock control unit internally, and a knock sensor( KS ) on the block to help prevent knock.

Initially, timing will occur at its optimal ignition point, once knock is identified the knock control microprocessor retards the ignition timing. When knock ceases the timing is advanced until the reference timing value is achieved or knock occurs once more when timing is again retarded. This procedure continually occurs so that the engine will run at the optimum timing. If a fault exists in the knock control processor an appropriate DTC will be logged in the self diagnostic unit, and the ignition timing retarded by the LOS Program. Which is obviously not a good thing.

thats nice however peak torque usually does not occur just before knock.

But if temps are kept down and mixture is optimal and the MAP sensor addressed then there shouldn't be any major differences in knock, should there?

nope there should not be but this has still not been resolved well stuffing on a fuel reg is about as far as its got

Winols.... yeah good luck with that one, not the easiest of applications, deffo expert user software.... lol

yeah its a pain but i havent got a spare £5k+ for DAMOS or similar

Ahhh so soon you will be supplying us all with solutions and bolt on packages and upgrades? With great discounts....lol Hows about a free set up for my motor for shows and demo's and open days at your unit? lol

nah not at all never mentioned any discounts at my unit? well nah as i have said i dont have a 'unit' however i do have access and use of a dynomite rolling road for now and will be working on premisis for later next year.

have fun

[niz406]

i still think a raising rate fuel reg is in all honesty a bit of a cowboy way of dealing with things

Dude, I just want it to work and be as cheap as possible, it will run and it will work! I never said I was a formula 1 technician, just an enthusiast... I can see I'm going to have to buy a 406 2.0 16v and install a blower just to prove I'm right !

Now if I can just find one cheap enough! It can't eat into my new car fund ! lol

ok must be impossible to pull ignition on non dizzy engines, ...................................... and yep about 5 degress less at 130kpa than the equivilent load/rpm site at 100kpa is about right for that boost aplication got fk all to do with mfi engines dont know what clap trap your going on about there.

On the Ford turanus V6 block its MFi no electronics stopping you from bolting on a tub and having some fun, in fact the first TT kit kit for it givves you an output of guess what 220hp almost a 50% increase on stock internals, all you have to do on that is advance the ignition a couple of degrees.

That was done by rotating the dizzy, thats why I brought it up.... for no other purpose lol

[tux2006]

Christ!! only wanted a easy way to get a little bit more acceleration!!
one day i'll understand what your talking about
*goes for a lie down*