Low level air intake and shallow water

[davew]

thanks scotty73, looks like it will be worth taking the pipe of then, or possibly trying to reroute it higher up.

[scotty73]

thanks scotty73, looks like it will be worth taking the pipe of then, or possibly trying to reroute it higher up.

How about this?
http://www.triplediamond.asn.au/index.p ... &Itemid=91

On the left hand side of course.

[calvi36]

There is great info over at the 406 Coupe Owners club site. Tatsfield developed a z duct system that fits into the current air filter box. Others have been using the "air scoop" from a Volvo S80, you can pick them up for a fiver from a breaker. I bought mine new for £14 from a Volvo main dealer, I also bought my second one from same dealer since I snapped the first one! (Don't ask!)

I have a BMC CDA filter connected to an S80 scoop that sits just under the bonnet and draws cold air. As this is at bonnet height it completely negates the risk of flooding, unless you are crossing the Nile!

Photo of the S80 Scoop:

http://s1333.photobucket.com/user/Peter ... d.png.html

[GingerMagic]

Just thought I would add to an oldie but goodie topic....

I was under the impression that the air intake was just a gaping big hole in the inner wing by the wheel, just ready to take on water in the shallowest of puddles, but I was wrong..!!

It seems the intake starts as a cone/trumpet shape way up behind the headlight, then curves down through its own little protective shell, between the liner and the front of the car, finally appearing in the bottom of the engine bay and up to the air-box.

How deep does the flood have to be to get up behind the headlight?? Or is it that the car I stripped was a late 2003 model and mine is a 2004, both have the same ( possibly redesigned and improved ) intake.

[steve_earwig]

They *should* be the same. Different engines seem to have different shaped intakes. They all look like the car should be safe for quite a few inches of water but all of them seem to be capable of drowning in just a few inches. It's probably some dynamic between the water being pushed around the lower grill and the wheel churning up water around the arch and it may be that you're perfectly safe below a certain speed (feel free to experiment ) Also, some owners have found their inlet to have collapsed (mjb for one) and to be hoovering dirt off the inside of the wing, maybe water too, given the right circumstances.

[scotty73]

Just thought I would add to an oldie but goodie topic....

I was under the impression that the air intake was just a gaping big hole in the inner wing by the wheel, just ready to take on water in the shallowest of puddles, but I was wrong..!!

It seems the intake starts as a cone/trumpet shape way up behind the headlight, then curves down through its own little protective shell, between the liner and the front of the car, finally appearing in the bottom of the engine bay and up to the air-box.

How deep does the flood have to be to get up behind the headlight?? Or is it that the car I stripped was a late 2003 model and mine is a 2004, both have the same ( possibly redesigned and improved ) intake.

Mine is the same on a 2000 model and the only thing i can think of is that the 3 holes are actually sucking up the water causing the problems... Especially if the pipe acts like a vacuum (which I'm not sure if it does or not?)

[Ares]

i took that protective plastic off the wing near the air intake,for replacing the trumpet but i didnt put it back cuz i am lazy.
perhaps i have stumbled upon a solution for sucking water,at least few inches more for engine

[GingerMagic]

Just thought I would add to an oldie but goodie topic....

I was under the impression that the air intake was just a gaping big hole in the inner wing by the wheel, just ready to take on water in the shallowest of puddles, but I was wrong..!!

It seems the intake starts as a cone/trumpet shape way up behind the headlight, then curves down through its own little protective shell, between the liner and the front of the car, finally appearing in the bottom of the engine bay and up to the air-box.

How deep does the flood have to be to get up behind the headlight?? Or is it that the car I stripped was a late 2003 model and mine is a 2004, both have the same ( possibly redesigned and improved ) intake.

Mine is the same on a 2000 model and the only thing i can think of is that the 3 holes are actually sucking up the water causing the problems... Especially if the pipe acts like a vacuum (which I'm not sure if it does or not?)

There is definately a vacuum, try putting your hand under the airbox next time you remove it and give your engine a rev - there is a proper suck....

[scotty73]

Just thought I would add to an oldie but goodie topic....

I was under the impression that the air intake was just a gaping big hole in the inner wing by the wheel, just ready to take on water in the shallowest of puddles, but I was wrong..!!

It seems the intake starts as a cone/trumpet shape way up behind the headlight, then curves down through its own little protective shell, between the liner and the front of the car, finally appearing in the bottom of the engine bay and up to the air-box.

How deep does the flood have to be to get up behind the headlight?? Or is it that the car I stripped was a late 2003 model and mine is a 2004, both have the same ( possibly redesigned and improved ) intake.

Mine is the same on a 2000 model and the only thing i can think of is that the 3 holes are actually sucking up the water causing the problems... Especially if the pipe acts like a vacuum (which I'm not sure if it does or not?)

There is definately a vacuum, try putting your hand under the airbox next time you remove it and give your engine a rev - there is a proper suck....

So maybe we need to block the 3 holes then?
I think the top of the snorkel in the wing would be higher than the bottom of the filter box and tbh I'm not convinced hoovering up warm engine bay air is doing my right leg any good.

[munkymanmatt]

I was thinking the same, been looking into this for a few weeks now, I want to get something sorted before winter gets here, my first winter with the pug and it tends to get a bit wet on the south west coast of Ireland!

I don't really want to just pull the pipes off as I'm a bit wary of heat soaking the engine. The intake pipe is placed near a source of strong flowing cool air for a reason after all.

It's very possible water is getting into the air intake through those 3 holes as they certainly seem to be the lowest point in the pipe where water could get in.
On the other hand, I would have thought that it would be much more difficult for the water to be drawn into the engine if there is still a way for air to get through the pipe. the air from the wheel arch would just get drawn through the water (kind of like a bong if anyone's seen one in action don't answer that) and carry on to the engine, with the added bonus of the air now having been water-filtered - however I know that an engine can pull a serious amount of air through its intake, so it's very possible the pull is strong enough to just pull the water in anyway, like a straw, especially so if there's a bend in the pipe that is completely flooded.


I might disconnect the pipe in its entirety and mess around. a possible experiment would involve dipping the section of the pipe that has holes into a bucket of water while keeping the 'wheel arch' section in the air, and using a wet/dry vacuum cleaner on the end of the pipe that attaches to the air intake manifold. I initially thought of using a leaf blower at the wheel arch end instead, but slightly different forces and effects... the results wouldn't be accurate.
If the vacuum cleaner collects any water then we have a winner.

I suspect finding a wet/dry hoover might be difficult, a water pump would do the same job, it would probably be a lot more powerful though. I'd attach it to the air intake end of the pipe and the pump would suck from the pipe. put the other end of the pump (the output) facing into a bucket and if any water gets through the pump into the empty bucket then it shows the holes in the air intake pipe are a problem.

Easily filled by melting some plastic into the holes or just using a water and heat proof sealer.

[Ares]

I dont think those 3 holes are the main problem....they appear to small to pull something serious inside.
Considering how big the air intake hole is when compare to those 3 tiny holes it just seems impossible that trough there water gets in.
I am more fan of that theory that simply waters builds up between bumper and that plastic wheel arch and combine with low air intake system,creates disaster.

[steve_earwig]

That was what I thought but fluid dynamics has a lot of counter-intuitive stuff in it (Google Bernoulli's principle...)

I don't really want to just pull the pipes off as I'm a bit wary of heat soaking the engine.

Removing the link pipe is meant to be an "oh my god look at the size of that puddle!" temporary solution, I was kind of hoping someone would find a cheap and elegant permanent solution for themselves (and then let me know )

The intake pipe is placed near a source of strong flowing cool air for a reason after all.

Where does this cold air come from? If it's from the front valance...

don't answer that

Ok, I won't

...using a wet/dry vacuum cleaner on the end of the pipe that attaches to the air intake manifold.

Useful things, wet&dry vacs. My old one has long since blown up and I still didn't find one cheap enough here to replace it. I don't think a water pump would have enough flow, it'd be like trying to blow an air bed up with a 12 volt tyre inflater - plenty of pressure but very little in the way of cubic feet per minute.

Anyway, good luck with the experiments, I'm sure we'll all be very interested in anything you can find out.

[jonny81191]

I wonder if there's any way to retro fit the system off the 306? That's a scoop up at bonnet level.

[steve_earwig]

It's not just the 306, lots of other Pugs (and Citroens) have something similar. It's always something I wanted to try but I don't have much access to breaker's yards here (not without driving half-way across the country and paying near dealer prices )

[munkymanmatt]

I dont think those 3 holes are the main problem....they appear to small to pull something serious inside.
Considering how big the air intake hole is when compare to those 3 tiny holes it just seems impossible that trough there water gets in.
I am more fan of that theory that simply waters builds up between bumper and that plastic wheel arch and combine with low air intake system,creates disaster.

Well I was thinking that too but if you stick your hand in front of the air intake with the engine running you might change your mind, the engine really does draw an enormous amount of air in over the course of a few seconds when throttle is applied, so while the holes might appear too small to allow enough water in, if they were submerged for a few seconds (or longer when driving through fords and the like) you could end up with a catastrophic amount of water in the engine.

Steve by cool I meant not 80C plus
Indeed, a water pump mightn't be as good (unless it was combustion powered maybe) but I have no access at all to a wet vac.

A 306 retrofit sounds good but I'm the same. Local breakers are useless and a ripoff