Camshaft Oil Seal replacement - 2.0 HDi

[cha1n]

Hi

I'm actually a berlingo driver (I know, I know) but I'm not getting much help on the berlingo forum and you guys seems pretty knowledgeable here.

I have a 2004 HDi engine (DW10TD, RHY) and whilst doing a timing belt replacement noticed some minor oil streaks coming from the cam and crankshaft oil seals. I replaced the crankshaft oil seal easily enough as it just slides off and is keyed, however the camshaft seal seems a more daunting prospect.

Is the camshaft sprocket keyed? The instructions that I have mention removing both the flywheel and camshaft locking pins and backing the crank off 90 degrees away from TDC and then using a cam sprocket holding tool (will probably be a DIY one) for removing the sprocket bolt. I can appreciate why all this is necessary but isn't this very, very risky? The crank I can deal with, so long as I feel around for the locking pin hole around 90 degrees the opposite direction from where I moved it, but surely there's no definite way of keeping the timing on the camshaft sprocket?

I'd really appreciate some help, the car has been sat on stands for a few days now as this 'simple' belt change has turned into something I'm not as comfortable doing.

[jasper5]

Hi, welcome to the forum

If you still have the locking pins fitted and the old belt on or you haven't attempted to remove the cam sprocket then use this method....

Mark the crank sprocket in 3 places with paint/tippex (even if you have it locked.)

Mark the cam sprocket teeth in a couple of places with paint/tippex and also mark the back of the cam sprocket and the cam itself....you may have to remove the cam cover if you can't see the cam itself....mark it with a solid scribe line as well as a paint mark.....ideally mark the position of the cam against a cam bearing.
You can now back the cam and crank off 90 degrees and undo the cam pulley, change the seal and reset the timing...personally I would mark the crank and the cam again at the 90 degree setting before removing the cam pulley.
Turn the engine back to the normal position and check all the marks are lined up.

Sorry, but I can't remember if the cam has a key.

The secret of keeping all your timing settings correct is to mark everything!!

[cha1n]

Hi Jasper

Thank you for the reply, I really appreciate it. I've removed the old belt but everything is still pinned to TDC and I've already tipexed the belt at various positions.

It seems that there's nothing for it than to make everything and hope it goes well. There's not much visibility at the back of the sprocket so removing the cylinder head cover is probably the way forward. It may even be the cylinder head cover leaking but you know how it is with oil and working out where it's coming from.

I'll start fiddling and let everyone know how it goes.

[cha1n]

I just took the cylinder head cover off and there could have been a slight leak in the corner by the cam sprocket. I can't decide if it's worth the risk of not changing the seal, even know I've bought it now (only a fiver). Thing is, even with the cylinder head cover off it didn't really increase visibility much. I think marking the sprocket is going to be difficult.

[cha1n]

OK, I've already posted some stuff but they are subject to moderation as I'm a new poster. Can't remember exactly what I said but someone has finally responded on the other forum saying that the camshaft is indeed keyed. I'd love some actual evidence that this is the case (can I access engine diagrams some how?) but if it is I assume is just a case of backing the crank off 90 deg and so long as I don't move the cam sprocket much whilst I've got it off, if the timing locking hole lines up with it and I rotate the crank forward 90 deg and get the timing pin in the flywheel that everything should be timed up?

I really don't like the idea of no belt and no timing pins in!

Lastly, can anyone clear up a conflict between instructions that I have. The haynes says to oil the camshaft seal and another set of instructions states in big letters to not oil it. I don't understand why it's ok to oil the crankshaft seal but not the camshaft seal as they are both oil barriers right?

Actually, proper lastly, do you remember how far you seated your crankshaft seal? I stupidly never paid attention to how far seated it was before removing the old one and the new one is protruding a few mm from the engine. I sort of followed these instructions; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k66VwGX4uGk where the the guy uses the crankshaft sprocket to seat it but If I did it this way the seal would be protruding by quite some way and presumably be in contact with the rotating face of the sprocket.

[cha1n]

Replaced this seal today, I pretty much HAD to tighten the camshaft sprocket against the locking pin (an 8mm bolt). Initially I used a garden hoe as a camshaft sprocket holding tool to prevent the cam sprocket moving whilst tightening but when I put the new belt on and tightened the tensioner, the belt tension was moving the sprocket anti-clockwise about 0.5-1mm and jamming the locking pin hard against the side of the sprocket making the pin impossible to remove (probably would have still came out if it had been a smooth pin, instead of a bolt with a thread that bites a bit).

Therefore, I had to take the belt off again, unlock the flywheel (so I could back the crank off 90 degrees) and then I could loosen the camshaft sprocket and tighten it against the locking pin (clockwise). That meant that when everything was back together with the belt on, that the belt tension pulling the cog 0.5-1mm anti-clockwise left the locking hole nice and central and the pin cam out easily. Should have just followed your advice initially and tightened it against the locking pin but thought it must be frowned upon for a reason!

URGENT PLEASE READ THIS PART

I'll add my last point to this post (and my timing belt post as it's urgent), can anyone confirm some things now I've replaced my belt.

- Will the corresponding tipex marks I made on the sprockets and timing belt ever align again?

I was cranking the engine over by the crank pulley bolt and I occasionally encountered resistance (almost a sponginess where the cogs would spin backwards a bit if I stopped cranking), followed by the crank spinning very easily for a second. I had horrible visions of pistons hitting valves and then springing back but is this actually the engine compression? I never felt it when I lined the timing holes up on the old timing belt, so found this VERY alarming.

With each complete revolution of the camshaft sprocket the timing holes line up perfectly but the tipex marks on the belt change position every time. This got my scared that maybe stuff was out of synch but I rotated the camshaft 4 times and the timing holes line up every time.

[jasper5]

If you didn't encounter any "solid" resistance when you turned the engine via the crank bolt then things sound normal and all should be well.In normal circumstances the engine will meet resistance as you turn it due to compression then release as compression releases.

It's unlikely the marks you made on the belt will line up unless you turn the engine several times....when I said mark the cam pulley I said mark the TEETH not the belt, you should mark the teeth in line with the cylinder head so you have a reference point against the head...marking the belt is pointless.
If the timing pins both fit in place after turning the engine by hand with the belt fitted correctly then all should be well.

[cha1n]

Thanks for the reply Jasper.

Thanks for clearing up the issue with the lining up of the markings on the timing belt. The first time I did a full rotation of the camshaft (from the locking pin and back) the markings on the belt no longer corresponded to markings on the sprockets and I thought it was game over, however the timing pins on both the flywheel and cam sprocket lined up. I then rotated the cam shaft a full turn again and the same results apart from I started encountering this springy resistance and thought for sure that I was hitting a valve or something but again the locking pins lined up. I rotated the camshaft 4 times in total and the locking pins lined up every time.

It was getting late so after having to have a sit down to pull myself together I decided the that the resistance could be compression, similar to if you were to put your thumb over the end of a syringe and push the plunger as far as you could.

All I have to get right now is the tension (hopefully). I've got it set a bit tighter than the old one was at the minute, partially because the procedure says to set the tension to double (ish) the correct tension and then turn the engine over 8 times and then lower the tension to the correct one. Presumably this is to check the tensioner is working ok? I tensioned it as much as I could whilst still being able to remove the locking pin and that's definitely tighter than the original belt was. I was actually alarmed at how loose the original belt was, I could basically flex the belt 90 degrees between the camshaft sprocket and fuel pump sprocket with not much effort at all (using index and thumb). Perhaps this is normal, I've left reading up on manually setting the tension until last as all of my guides insist on using a SEEM tension gauge of course.

I will be doing some research tonight/tomorrow to make sure I get the tension correct. Very scared about starting the engine tomorrow, ha!

P.S. I understood what you meant about marking the sprocket, not the belt. I did indeed mark the sprocket in relation to the cylinder head (about 3 o'clock) but I couldn't get in to scribe a line between the sprocket and camshaft so I just accepted that because the shaft was keyed that there wasn't much that could go wrong. The sprocket only has very minor movement when the locking pin is in so it's hard to be out by much.

Thanks so much for your help, it's been invaluable.

[jasper5]

Set the belt tension according to my instruction in this how-to for a 110 HDi.....

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8229

Good luck with it

[cha1n]

Thanks Jasper.

I'll definitely follow those instructions. What's the purpose of moving the cam pulley anti-clockwise, is it to take up any slack in the system before adjusting the tensioner?

I take it the belt should be quite slack then really? For example I don't think I could spin the tensioner very easily at the moment and I can twist the belt around 80 degrees with a fair amount of force with index and thumb between the cam and injection sprocket. Interesting method as I've only briefly glanced at stuff that mentioning the belt twist methods. I'll definitely try it out.

[jasper5]

The purpose of moving the cam pulley to the left is to keep tension on the belt on the other side so that the tension can be applied properly onto the tensioner side, otherwise you get a false picture.
The belt shouldn't be too slack...as I wrote in the how-to, you should be able to just turn the tensioner pulley nicely without too much force....turn it easily and it's too slack, not being able to turn it, too tight.
I never use the twisting of the belt method.
Turn the engine over a few times and check it again.

I've done about 70 of these belt jobs and use this method every time.

[cha1n]

Thanks for your help with this jasper. I fired her up today and everything seems to be running fine.

The new aux belt was a bitch to get on and I couldn't get any coolant to come out of the bleed screw by the thermostat housing (I replaced the water pump). Any ideas why that could be? I tried squeezing the pipes a bit but it only comes out in spurts as I squeeze, not constant like the bleed screw under the windscreen.

[jasper5]

Glad you got it sorted

Nothing comes out the bleed screw by the thermostat until the thermostat if open.

[cha1n]

Ah ok. Do I need to let the engine get hot enough to bleed that screw? Slightly worried that it'll be a bit hot, ha.

Also, just to add to this (for anyone reading this in future), if you're fitting a new aux belt (like I did) make sure you check the belt tension as there is a manual tensioner along with the spring loaded one.

I had a feeling that mine might have been too tight as the old one came off really easily with the spring loaded tensioner locked out (presumably because it had stretched) and the new one was a pain to get on. Mainly because I had no idea that there was also a manual tensioner so I just forced it on by pushing the spring loaded tensioner as hard as I could.

After running the engine for around 5 minutes the belt had started to *slightly* come off of the crank pulley, so please find a procedure and follow it. I found the haynes manual procedure much better than the .mht workshop manuals as it gave more information regarding tension.

[jasper5]

Before bleeding the thermostat screw/cap wait until the radiator has got hot then undo the bleed screw a little bit with a pair of pliers so you don't burn yourself....shouldn't need much bleeding, just undo it until water comes out then screw it up and leave it.