HDi 110: P0243 -> Limp Home

[400four]

Hello.

I bought a 2000 LX HDi 110 estate with about 97k miles from a dealer.

It has a few problems. I'm trying to to understand what is going on with the vehicle.
I'm a bit of a numpty about modern cars, particularly diesels.
If it's likely to be something straighforward, I might get a local garage to fix it,
but there are other problems as well.

The main problem we have at the moment is that the ECU trips out - goes into "limp home" mode
if requested power goes over about 50bhp ballpark. Which is interesting in hills.

The reported fault code is: P0243 Turbocharger Wastegate Solenoid A Malfunction.

A reliable way to trip out the ECU would be to attempt to accelerate rapidly in 3rd from 30 to 60 mph.
Pushing the accelerator down at over 3000rpm seems to trip it out, though we have had it trip out on a flat road at a steady 50mph in top gear.


Some history:

Driving the vehicle back from the dealer for the first time, the coolant level warning came on.
Topped up, continued. Once I could understand. But it got worse. Dealer says look for leaky hoses, but no leaks apparent, even with fluorescent OAT coolant.
White smoke from exhaust, and lockup when trying to start from warm.
Eventually dealer acknowledged that problem was likely to be cylinder head - returned car.
Dealer gets head skimmed, tested, refitted. Dealer says they've test-driven it 60 miles.

In this period, power seems as expected, & no ECU problems (didn't have a readout tool then).

Go to pick up car from dealer. Leaving town exit 30mph roundabout onto 60mph dual carriageway, attempt to accelerate in 3rd, and ECU trips out. Return to dealer. They report mass flow sensor and other errors arround turbo, diagnose loose airbox after someone has checked gearbox oil level that morning.
Attempt to leave again, by different route. Get onto motorway. Put foot down to overtake. ECU trips out again.
Return to dealer again. I don't hear about error readouts, as I've gone to get a sandwich. Mechanic is out on a test drive.
He returns, stops, opens bonnet without responding to questions about if it's OK. The ? auxiliary power takeoff belt ? that drives the aircon and the alternator is disintegrating. Can't drive car home. Too late to get replacement belt.

Dealer agrees to have someone drive car to my home - so reliability can be checked. Dealer delivers car on pickup.

ECU trips out next day, accelerating on dual-carriageway slip-road. One day before going on holiday with car, so I rush to get an ODB readout/reset tool.


Questions:

Given that the performance was fine before the cylinder head work, is it likely that they've messed something up putting it back together ? Or was this more likely to have been another latent fault ?

The other thing I've noticed since the vehicle was returned is that the oil level indication when car is turned on is very erratic - sometimes indicates empty, sometimes full. This wasn't the case before. I think I'd have noticed. But it's not obviously consuming oil - according to the old-fashioned dipstick method. Does that indicate anything to anyone ?

[400four]

p.s.
When I found the ODB tool, the person who sold it suggested that the problem was likely to be the (?mechanical?) EGR valve being coked up, and that the problem might be fixed by removing it and cleaning it.

Does that make any sense ?

I might have tried that, but removing it looked more complicated than I expected.

[gumby6371]

That's quite a saga mate, sorry to hear it.

I can't understand why the dealer has gone for a head skim for what in my opinion appears to be an overboost issue? 3000RPM is near the top end for turbo's on diesels so it will be trying to reduce pressure by opening the wastegate.
Have a look at the vacuum pipe to the turbo electrovalve as it may have a split in it causing a drop in pressure to the turbo wastegate. I believe the 110 engine applies vacuum to open the wastegate thus preventing overboost. Have a good look at all the vac pipe and if possible swap the electrovalve for a known good one to eliminate that.
Be aware the vac pipes are all connected so a split in any of them can cause problems, turbo, EGR or brake servo. Not sure what else takes a feed on the 110 so start at the vacuum pump and follow the pipes.

If you post your location someone near by may have Peugeot planet for a proper diagnostic session.

[Doggy]

I would agree with the above - may just be a vacuum pipe that was disturbed during the repair.

I have experienced random oil level problems with mine - happened when I had a minor fuel leak form the filter assembly and the level sensor was getting wet. Been fine since I fitted a new filter housing.

[madmadmax]

i would agree about the vac system check. i have a Wastegate Solenoid that works if you need it

also if you are local to me you can pop round and we can have a look at it i am in Sheffield south Yorkshire

the best way to get to the wastgate is to pull the drivers wheel off and wheel arch liner

[400four]

Thankyou all for your replies. Like I said, I'm a numpty with this stuff - I've never had a diesel car before.
I know a bit of maths and physics, but not how cars really work.

That's quite a saga mate, sorry to hear it.

There is more .
Also, dealer now [since earlier post] says: go away, not our problem,:"The problem always seems to be at your end" [exact quote]. Might get a bit legal. I would maybe say he he's living in the last millennium world of Arthur Daley, not the world of SOGA.
I just want a big boring car that basically works. I don't expect or need it to be perfect. I don't want to know how it works. But if I have to, I can maybe learn a little bit.

I can't understand why the dealer has gone for a head skim for what in my opinion appears to be an overboost issue?

The P0243 ECU trip-out has only happened after they [said they] skimmed [and had pressure tested] the head. It's hard to be sure, but it seems a bit down on power now even when it hasn't tripped. Before that, power seemed fine (as I expected for nominal 110bhp max).

3000RPM is near the top end for turbo's on diesels so it will be trying to reduce pressure by opening the wastegate.
Have a look at the vacuum pipe to the turbo electrovalve as it may have a split in it causing a drop in pressure to the turbo wastegate. I believe the 110 engine applies vacuum to open the wastegate thus preventing overboost. Have a good look at all the vac pipe and if possible swap the electrovalve for a known good one to eliminate that.
Be aware the vac pipes are all connected so a split in any of them can cause problems, turbo, EGR or brake servo. Not sure what else takes a feed on the 110 so start at the vacuum pump and follow the pipes.

I'll have a poke arround in the Haynes manual to try to find those pipes.
So the turbo is operating at it's maximum intake flow (or rpm?) at about 3000rpm engine speed ?
But I guess max power should be somewhere round about 4500rpm, given the 5000rpm redline ?
I don't think I've ever reved it past about 4200rpm, and that was using engine braking down a steep hill.

If you post your location someone near by may have Peugeot planet for a proper diagnostic session.

Done.

The ODB tool I have is a Clarke ODBPRO.
So far, I've only used it with the engine off. Are ther things I should look at with the engine on, that might be helpful ?

Regards,

J.

[400four]

I would agree with the above - may just be a vacuum pipe that was disturbed during the repair.
I have experienced random oil level problems with mine - happened when I had a minor fuel leak form the filter assembly and the level sensor was getting wet. Been fine since I fitted a new filter housing.

I'll try to look into vacuum pipe problems.
Do you mean diesel fuel leaking into the oil ? Oil level sensor wet with diesel fuel ? Or do you mean wet with water ?

[trufflehunt]

That's quite a saga mate, sorry to hear it.

I can't understand why the dealer has gone for a head skim for what in my opinion appears to be an overboost issue? 3000RPM is near the top end for turbo's on diesels so it will be trying to reduce pressure by opening the wastegate.
Have a look at the vacuum pipe to the turbo electrovalve as it may have a split in it causing a drop in pressure to the turbo wastegate. I believe the 110 engine applies vacuum to open the wastegate thus preventing overboost. Have a good look at all the vac pipe and if possible swap the electrovalve for a known good one to eliminate that.
Be aware the vac pipes are all connected so a split in any of them can cause problems, turbo, EGR or brake servo. Not sure what else takes a feed on the 110 so start at the vacuum pump and follow the pipes.

If you post your location someone near by may have Peugeot planet for a proper diagnostic session.

As sudden drop in coolant level, and white smoke from the exhaust are a couple of the signs of head gasket failure,
I can see why the dealer thought the problem was there.

The OP hasn't had any real use of the car.
In his place, I'd describe the car, as sold, as not fit for purpose, and pursue the dealer on that basis.

[Doggy]

Do you mean diesel fuel leaking into the oil ? Oil level sensor wet with diesel fuel ? Or do you mean wet with water ?

The middle one.....

[400four]

Do you mean diesel fuel leaking into the oil ? Oil level sensor wet with diesel fuel ? Or do you mean wet with water ?

The middle one.....

OK. Thankyou.
But how would that happen ? (I'm a bit skeptical about stuff folk say generally, it's not personal to you )
That seems to me to suggest diesel fuel in the crankcase - is that what you mean ? How would that happen ?
If there's a load of diesel in the oil, I guess that would mess up the viscosity. And the oil would need changing.

If I understand right from the Haynes Manual ( figure 14.2, page 5A.5), the oil level sensor is in the crankcase, on the rhs (relative to direction of travel) of the oil filter. Which seems to put it behind the alternator. I have trouble finding it.

Regards,

J.

[400four]

As sudden drop in coolant level, and white smoke from the exhaust are a couple of the signs of head gasket failure,
I can see why the dealer thought the problem was there.

Guess you meant "can't see why the dealer thought the problem wasn't there"

The OP hasn't had any real use of the car.
In his place, I'd describe the car, as sold, as not fit for purpose, and pursue the dealer on that basis.

Well, yes. But do you have any practical experience of sueing the dealer ?
The dealer is in a state of righteous indignation that I'm complaining. He refuses further communication. Look at all the work they've done! What could I possibly have to complain about ?

Sorry mods if this is getting off "Engine, Clutch and Transmission", and into consumer law. I have tried to get the dealer to look at Guidance for second hand car dealers, but that only seemed to annoy them. Doing a bit of googling,it seems that a lot of used car dealers think the same way.

It seems to me that the SOGA puts such dealers a bit outside their comfort zone: they're used to customer bringing in a vehicle with a problem, and saying to the customer someting like: "We could try replacing X, that will cost you £Y", but the SOGA requires them to debug and fix the problem, or compensate the customer.

The other main problems with the vehicle seem to be familiar on this forum (reported to dealer before they took it away to do the head) :
- Handbrake use triggers "Low Brake fluid" warning, even with full brake fluid header. Which is an odd bug, but serious because a potentially safety-critical warning is masked. They did reproduce this, and tried cleaning switch contacts, but it has got worse since they had the car.
- Clutch pedal sometimes pumps down, and won't return by itself.

[madmadmax]

if you are going to take legal action its best to stop fixing faults as once fixed you have no proof the fault was there

[trufflehunt]

As sudden drop in coolant level, and white smoke from the exhaust are a couple of the signs of head gasket failure,
I can see why the dealer thought the problem was there.

Guess you meant "can't see why the dealer thought the problem wasn't there"

The OP hasn't had any real use of the car.
In his place, I'd describe the car, as sold, as not fit for purpose, and pursue the dealer on that basis.

Well, yes. But do you have any practical experience of sueing the dealer ?
The dealer is in a state of righteous indignation that I'm complaining. He refuses further communication. Look at all the work they've done! What could I possibly have to complain about ?

Sorry mods if this is getting off "Engine, Clutch and Transmission", and into consumer law. I have tried to get the dealer to look at Guidance for second hand car dealers, but that only seemed to annoy them. Doing a bit of googling,it seems that a lot of used car dealers think the same way.

It seems to me that the SOGA puts such dealers a bit outside their comfort zone: they're used to customer bringing in a vehicle with a problem, and saying to the customer someting like: "We could try replacing X, that will cost you £Y", but the SOGA requires them to debug and fix the problem, or compensate the customer.

The other main problems with the vehicle seem to be familiar on this forum (reported to dealer before they took it away to do the head) :
- Handbrake use triggers "Low Brake fluid" warning, even with full brake fluid header. Which is an odd bug, but serious because a potentially safety-critical warning is masked. They did reproduce this, and tried cleaning switch contacts, but it has got worse since they had the car.
- Clutch pedal sometimes pumps down, and won't return by itself.

"....Dealer says they've test-driven it 60 miles....".
"...Dealer agrees to have someone drive car to my home - so reliability can be checked..."
".... Dealer delivers car on pickup...."
".. I just want a big car that works.."

Time to give yourself a slap around the head, in my opinion.
Instead of googling about what second hand car dealers think, you may wish to start googling about, yes, the Sale of Goods Act,
your rights, fitness for purpose, and the steps to take next.

[400four]

if you are going to take legal action its best to stop fixing faults as once fixed you have no proof the fault was there

"Proof" is a somewhat political concept. For most people, anyway.

Legal action would be one option. But slow and hassly.

If the thing can be fixed relatively simply, and I'm confident the dealer hasn't done even more damage, then it might be more pragmatic to just fix it.
If I'm confident that I understand what's happening - for example from OBD readouts, or visual inspection - I might try to fix it, or have it fixed.

That's the dilemma.

If it was a bicycle, I'd fix it myself, because I'd trust myself to do a better job than any local dealer. Not so sure about modern cars.

I haven't done any tinkering, and neither has anyone else. Just checking fluids.

[400four]

"....Dealer says they've test-driven it 60 miles....".
"...Dealer agrees to have someone drive car to my home - so reliability can be checked..."
".... Dealer delivers car on pickup...."
".. I just want a big car that works.."

Time to give yourself a slap around the head, in my opinion.

Yup, done that. But to be fair, that's after the fact.

Instead of googling about what second hand car dealers think, you may wish to start googling about, yes, the Sale of Goods Act,
your rights, fitness for purpose, and the steps to take next.

OK, I sortof see why you interpreted the post that way. No, I haven't tried "googling about what second hand car dealers think".
My comment was based on postings on consumer websites about the behaviour of used car dealers.