diesel pump

[hirschhs]

Hi, I have this idling problem which is getting worse. The car rocks to and fro while the engine hunts. It's been diagnosed as a fuel pump problem. I believe (though don't know how to check) that this model (97 406 2.1) has the Lucas Epic. Does anyone know a) if this is a common fault, b) if it can be fairly easily repaired c) if these pumps are available 2nd hand or recon?
I don't really want to get rid of the old girl as we've spent a fair bit (full exhaust, sills, Other Stuff) and when she goes, she goes!
Any advice gratefully accepted. (I have asked elsewhere as I need as much input as I can get)
many thanks
steve h

[Captain Jack]

Could be the pump... but could be the injectors. Doggy on here had the same issue with his HDI.

Can you do a leak-off test on the injectors?

[hirschhs]

Just been quoted 54,000 Hungarian Forint (€180) to CHECK which part of the pump is malfunctioning! Here, that represents half of someone's monthly salary! Or we could have the Epic exchanged for a Bosch VE for 180,000 HUF almost €600!
I also read that sometimes the Epic suffers from poor wiring connections, that, at least, may be something I can check

[Captain Jack]

I still say test your injectors - very easy to do (search for leak-off test on here or your favourite search engine).

You can probably get a pump for cheap on eBay and get it sent over to Hungary.

[hirschhs]

thanks Capt. Jack.. I will follow up on both your suggestions

[hirschhs]

despite my best efforts, I can't find anything on HOW to perform a leak off test! It must be so simple that everyone knows - except me! It's probably a bit like cricket or the stock market, if you don't get it by the time you're 20, it's too late to ask!

[PeterN]

Don't know if the leakoff test applies to IDI injectors. If it had been a purely mechanical pump I would have said its very unlikely to be the problem, don't know much about the EPIC pumps but that's mostly mechanical so I certainly wouldn't think its the prime suspect, its more injection timing errors that afflict them. Injectors are a possibility as is low compression on one clyinder, do you get any blue smoke from the exhaust when when its idling?

I would be inclined to replace it with a Bosch mechanical pump, never had any trouble with those in 15 years of XM ownership, a couple of which had done around 300,000 miles.

Peter

[hirschhs]

Peter, thanks for the reply. I have now found out the eternal secret of the leak off test but...

No blue smoke and starts first time every time. The only symptom is that hunting and rocking forwards and backwards.
I understood that exchanging the Epic for the Bosch disturbed some of the electronics, gauges etc. I am an utter novice (though an old one) so can only repeat what I have read... It's also true that trying to find a replacement Epic is like trying to source unicorn shavings.
Someone also wrote somewhere that it might be worth checking the wiring which is apparently poor on the Lucas Epic; would you agree that it's worth my while to fiddle with wires? I mean how much damage can I do?

[PeterN]

As I say, I don't know to much about them as all my XMs had Bosch pumps, the only problem I know of is due to a faulty injector with the sensor in it or the connection to it, you will find one of your injectors will have a wire connected to it, check the connection. The usual problem with this sensor is that if its not working the pump timing is permanently advanced resulting in a loud diesel knock.

Uneven running suggests that the combustion is uneven, either because one cylinder is receiving a different amount of fuel or its not burning efficiently in one cylinder, if you don't have any smoke on tickover that would seem to rule out uneven combustion. If you slacken a fuel union so it leaks and is not all going into the cylinder that will give the same symptoms.

I would be surprised if the fault was with the pump, I have never had an injection pump cause this and I have been running diesels since 1959! There is always a first time though. I think an injector swap or at least a test would be the way to go although on the XM they seemed to last forever. A diesel specialist should be able to test them for not to much money.

Check for diesel leaks first though.

Peter

[hirschhs]

Update: it seems that our problem is the wiring to the pump, not the pump itself. Apparently the wires in the loom have lost some of their insulation and this is what's causing the odd symptoms. For the princely sum of 50,000 HUF (around €170) they can sort it out.
So many thanks to those who have offered advice here.

[hirschhs]

I spoke too soon... the car doesn't start at all now and 'they' tell me I need to replace the pump or at least "the electronic part" of the pump so back to square one really. Does anyone know if there's a name for this 'electronic part'?

[hirschhs]

I have found a pump on ebay UK but I'm not sure it's right even though it says it will fit mine as well as the 2.2 hdi. Can anyone tell me if this is ok?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-406-6 ... 3a96c932c9

In fact I think this may be just a pump from the fuel tank...

[PeterN]

You may find the problem is with the pressure regulator on the end of the pump,all the problems I have had has been due to these. The have a very fine filter inside which blocks and I haven't been been able to clear, you can grind the end off as some come without a filter.

Peter

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-FUEL-PRES ... 2ed481699d

Or you can get a secondhand one.

[hirschhs]

Thanks Peter, is there a way to check whether or not that's the problem?

[PeterN]

Only really to fit another one. They are quite easy although a bit fiddly, they are held on with two torx or philips screws and a connector, you will need a 1/4 drive ratchet with the appropriate socket You have to remove the fuel filter, or at least you do on the C5, the regulator is then on the opposite end of the pump to the cam belt. I got a secondhand one off ebay for not very much money but I also had a spare pump which I had changed because it was difficult to start especially when hot and guess what, when I put the regulator on the other pump that was difficult to start so I changed the pump needlessly.

Peter

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-XSARA ... 541d8b3f17