2.1TD snapped timing belt

[totaleclipse]

Hey, new to the forum, and basically looking for a little advice.

I have a 1997 2.1 12v TD executive estate, which has been a dream of a car to me since i got it 7 months ago, with only electrical issues, which were always fixed by replacing the switches, lol.

tonight it cut out and wouldn't start back up, so got my mate to pick it up on his recovery truck and took it back to my garage, stripped the inlet manifold and cam cover off and gave the key a little stab and low and behold the cam didn't turn, so deffo a snapped timing belt.

what i want to know is a couple of things, number one after a look around the engine bay, am i right in thinking the timing belt is an engine out proceedure?
secondly does the engine have any valve clearence for when this happens?
third can anybody point me in the direction of a workshop manual or similar that will show me the timing marks?

having already assumed it was an engine out job i will be removing the engine tomorrow and removing the head to check the valves and pistons are ok before i spend cash and find out the engine is knackered.

if the worst has happened, are there any breakers etc someone could recommend to get either a replacement engine or head from, as i really don't have the money to replace the car right now, and it is mot'd till jan 2010 and taxed to july 09, and has just had new calipers all round etc etc, so really don't want to junk it.

[poddack]

Definately an engine out job, I expect you'll have valve damage. I found an engine on ebay a few months ago for £175, still going strong!

[neildavies]

My timing belt was changed on my old 2.1 with the engine in the car.

I had read in a magazine though that changing the head gasket was an engine out job, so it depends on how much work your engine needs.

[Welly]

If it was me I'd get another engine and swap all my bits and bobs over to it and fit a new belt whilst on the bench then slap it back in.

(sounds easy doesn't it )

[jasper5]

Timing settings are....turn the camshaft until the hole in the pulley lines up with the bolt hole and thread in the cylinder head. Turn the injection pump until the two holes in the pulley line up with bolt holes in the casing, screw 8 mm threaded bolts through the holes in the pulleys to lock them.
Turn the crankshaft until the you can fit a 6 mm rod through the hole under the starter motor into the hole in the flywheel.

Of course, if the belt wasn't broken, you just need to line up the hole under the starter motor, fit the 6 mm rod and line up the bolt holes in the injection pump and camshaft pulleys.

A broken cambelt will result in serious damage, the last one I did had bent valves and a broken camshaft.

The cylinder head can be removed without removing the engine, the key is to remove the manifolds and their fastening studs, removing the studs allows you to leave the exhaust manifold connected to the exhaust whist allowing the head to be lifted out.It's not an easy job to remove the exhaust manifold studs!!

If you decide to remove and repair the cylinder head, ALWAYS use a geniune Peugeot head gasket, the other gaskets don't really matter.

[djp30djp]

I'd definately be looking for another engine or donor car,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1999-Peugeot-406- ... dZViewItem

[totaleclipse]

Timing settings are....turn the camshaft until the hole in the pulley lines up with the bolt hole and thread in the cylinder head. Turn the injection pump until the two holes in the pulley line up with bolt holes in the casing, screw 8 mm threaded bolts through the holes in the pulleys to lock them.
Turn the crankshaft until the you can fit a 6 mm rod through the hole under the starter motor into the hole in the flywheel.

thankyou - thats exactly the information i was looking for.

also, i will try and remove the head without taking the engine out tonight, as when i arrived this morning the workshop was a flurry of activity and i got roped into helping with a vectra engine swap, during which the engine hoist screwed up, lol.

@djp - i have emailed the seller asking about condition and price of the engine etc, good find, and thankyou.

will post my findings when the heads off, but i'm not holding out much hope.

[mark21TD]

On the 1.9 if the belt snaps you can get away with replacing the cam and retaining caps as the valves are inline with the pistons, as the 2.1 is based on the 1.9 I would remove the cam cover and see if the cam is broken, if it is then all the energy has gone up through the valves and to the cam, so remove the cam and rotate the crank so all pistons are at the same hight and then push each valve down in turn and see if they move freely and snap shut uniformly, if they do just replace the cam and retaining caps fit a new belt and give it a go.
It could save you a lot of work and money as a second hand engine is always a gamble.
By the way the Haynes manual No 3394 covers the 2.1td.
Where are you as there's a 2.1 (light front damage so you would hope it was a runner when scraped) in a scrapy close to me if you need it.

[totaleclipse]

i am just south of glasgow.

i have aleready removed the cam cover and the cam does not appear to be broken.

will be removing the head anyway to check, if it can be taken out while the engine is in the car, i may as well do it so i know for sure.

[totaleclipse]

ok, removed the cam today and all the valves are perfectly level and move up and down freely.

one of the followers has snapped, but everything else appears to be in good order.

its 15 bucks for a follower and 81 for a timing belt kit, so 96 bucks and looks like i'll be good to go.

the only thing preying on the back of my mind is that i havn't seen the pistons, but the bottom end moves by hand ok, and i am of the opinion that if one follower snapped and all 12 valves are fine, surely it can't have wrecked a piston, just wish i knew for sure, but its £72 for a head gasket kit, and i'm a bit worried about removing the head as this means its £72 bucks just to look at the pistons when i know the valves etc are ok.

any thoughts? should i just get a follower and t-belt kit and try it?

[steve_earwig]

As the valves are all out the way could you do a compression test? I suppose this wouldn't tell you if there's a dent in a piston but it would tell you if one's fricked. Either that or has anyone got an endoscope?

[jasper5]

The compression test is a good idea.You would still need to fit the timing belt.

Failing that, look at it this way....you need the timing belt kit, even if you change the engine (you would be better off changing the belt kit as you won't know the history of the engine), so, that leaves a follower to change and a gamble, you are only gambling the follower, and your time, so, go for it.

If you decide to go for it, be careful turning the engine, feel for the valves as you carefully turn the crank to line up the timing marks.

When I gave you the timing settings earlier, I went off memory, on the injection pump pulley, Autodata only shows one hole in the pulley to lock it (about 5 o clock), the camshaft has one hole, set about 8/9 oclock.The crank is the same, hole under the starter.

[totaleclipse]

know what, your right.

cars papped back outside for now, need to wait till friday for some folding stuff, so i'll do it on saturday and let you all know how it goes. my mate with the recovery truck is bringing me a set lock down tools as well, so even better, lol.

[mark21TD]

Sounds like you got away without to much damage.
Here's a little tip for locking up the crank, go and get a radiator roller from the local DIY store then bend the handle about untill you can slide it down into the hole behind the startermotor (you MUST disconect the battery first) this will save alot of greaf as you dont have to remove anything.

[totaleclipse]

finally got started on this (so much for doin it saturday morning, lol)

looking over everything i reckon it would have been finished today had it not been for the dratted bottom pully.
goddam me thats tuff to get off, my pully puller wouldn't go behind it, so i was reduced to a couple of levers, recon i spent at least 2 hours just trying to get this off, lol.

once it popped off, i changed the tensioner, shut the doors and went home, lol.

so fingers crossed she'll be running tomorrow, nobody else will be there, so i might actually get some peace to do some work, lol.