2.1td lucas to bosch pump swap?

[mark21TD]

My belt was a sod to get on aswell, and winding to adjuster back is a right royal one.
Did you disconect the fuel pipes at the bulkhead to gaine more acsess.

[mon]

Just thought i'd let you guys know that it certainly is possible just finnished my conversion on a 2.1 406 from lucas IP, which died to a bosch IP from a 1993 405.

Happy days, required a bit of work on the electrics but got there.

[Doggy]

Well done, mon
How does it go now? - I've heard the Bosch can give more oomph
Did you have trouble setting it up?
Any other differences?

[craighuckins]

hi folks!
Bosch pump, lines and injectors are on, but car doesn't want to start The mechanic I've got to do it says he's timed the pump up, but it looks like all he's done is line up the holes in the sprockets and bolt them down so everything was bolted down at TDC, but there's more to it than that, isn't there? Surely you need a gauge in the back of the pump to properly set up the diesel timing? Any ideas would be appreciated! (The system has been bled, there's no airlock or leaks and it's on jump leads from an industrial jump starter, before anyone pokes the finger at that!)

[swiss]

Well, with a 2.1 you've got a Lucas pump which is all electron... ic... ally...

Oh. Um, yes

OK, silliness aside, HBOL agrees that you'll need a DTI. Apparently there's an access port located between the four pipe unions.

[totaleclipse]

would be very interested in details of this conversion when you guys get it working properly, my mum runs her pajero on veg oil and makes some good savings, and its starting to bug me now to the point that i was actually considering selling up and buying a 1.9, but tbh i REALLY don't wanna do that, just love the spec on the exec tooooo much.

[craighuckins]

well, just to give you an update, the beast is alive and well. No more filthy evil that is lucas epic, car is running sweet as a nut with the bosch pump, lines and injectors. No rev counter is a small price to pay! Pump came off a '95 citroen xm 2.1.td, so get searching the scrappies!

so, total cost to me for my immaculate '97 p reg 406 with service history and 130,000 miles:

car as non-runner, mot'd till december - £250
Pump, injectors and lines plus courier delivery - £140
Mechanics mate's rates for pump swap - £120
6 months tax £104

Grand total of £614 with 6 months T&T!

Now, where did I put that 500 litres of WVO, time to get filtering and de-watering methinks!

[mon]

Have it all up and running now guys didn't update this forum was too busy over on another forum http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

I am in the process of writing a guide which hopefully you guys will find usefull.

Craig you did wire up the stop solenoid didn't you?, Bolt them ll in place willl give a rough guide you can them either tweak it and see how it runs or use the guage, I did have access to a gauge but they are a pain to use so I ended adjusting it and driving it. If its smoking the pump will need advancing, if its knocking the pump needs retarding.

Dogslife Yea the bosch can give more power, got a boost pressure gauge on order will help with the tuning heard you can get the 2.1l upto 180 BHP
Had issues with the timing but after giving up on the DTI gauge I got there quickly.

[mark21TD]

When changing the pump where do you take the boost presure pipe from (the one that goes to the mushroom thing) ?

[mark21TD]

I got the pump changed today, so my 2.1 now has a Bosch pump
Got a few problems to sort out but otherwise it runs fine.

[wlb]

Have it all up and running now guys didn't update this forum was too busy over on another forum http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

I am in the process of writing a guide which hopefully you guys will find usefull.

Craig you did wire up the stop solenoid didn't you?, Bolt them ll in place willl give a rough guide you can them either tweak it and see how it runs or use the guage, I did have access to a gauge but they are a pain to use so I ended adjusting it and driving it. If its smoking the pump will need advancing, if its knocking the pump needs retarding.

Dogslife Yea the bosch can give more power, got a boost pressure gauge on order will help with the tuning heard you can get the 2.1l upto 180 BHP
Had issues with the timing but after giving up on the DTI gauge I got there quickly.

Hi Mon,

I've only just stubbled across this forum while Googling this very topic. Have you finished your write-up yet, and if so where can I find it?
I've been grappling with this problem for 2 years when I was forced to fit a second-hand (but relatively new) Epic pump to my '98 406 2.1-litre. But this isn't a satisfactory solution as I'm still stuck with the Lucas pump. The only real option here seems to be the 1.9-litre 405 pump but they are becoming like hen's teeth. We have a limited range of donar Pug and Cit diesels to choose from as the full range was never sold here.

[mark21TD]

Hi wlb
I've just finished doing the same. mon has sent me his unfinished write up but I can't open the file.

Any Bosch fully machanical (no ecu) pump (with sprocket)/pipes/injectors/ cold start unit (the cable that goes from the back of the pump to the thurmostat) from a 1.9 td (XUD9) peugeot / citrion will do, try to find a pump that has no immobaliser (if thats how you spel it) as these are hard to remove.

Try to get the pump on the bracket and mark it's position before removal, this way the timing will at least be quite close (I have left mine as was and it runs fine), you can use the lucas bracket if you move the mounting studs to the other holes but you will need to re-time the pump and there is no info on what the timeing should be so it's trile and error, when useing the new bracket the timeing belt cover will not fit back on.

When you try to fit the injector pipes you will need to adjust them as they foul on the head and don't quit line up on the injectors, but this isn't that hard to do, just go easy on them so they don't kink.

The top of the boost presure diafram on the top of the bosch pump (the mushroom shape thing) will need to be tuned 180 degrease so it doesn't foul the inlet pipe (when removing the top make sure you don't change the position of the diafram as this will alter the boost fueling), the pipe that runs from this will need to be plumbed into the inlet pipe (a good place for this is where the electronic boost presure sensor was, I found an bayonet type air line fitting to that screwed in the hole).

The stop soleniod needs to be wired to a live from the ignition, I have used on of the terminals from the old lucas plug (there is two in the center, the one closest to the front of the car is the one I used) but the engine runs on for 15 < 20sec after turning the ignition off so you may wont to find another place.

When you wire the stop soleniod you need to disconect the wire to the cold start timing advance (wire running to the part at the lower front of the pump) or the timing will be always 8 degrease advanced, this is only if you use the wireing conector block that is on the pump and not conect straght to the stop soleniod.

The cold start unit (cable thing) will need to be screwed into the thurmostat housing (after removeing the plug in the side) and reconected to the pump, this will need to be adjusted (so the cable is not tight) when the engine is hot, when hot the engine should rev at 850-900rpm and cold 1100rpm.

You can use the old throttle cable but I found I get a lot of vibration at the pedle and will be changing it for one from a 406 1.9td to see if this helps.

Once the car is running again you will need to adjust the base fueling to compencate for the increace in engine size, the 2.1 will respond well to being tuned in this way and it can be done the same as the 1.9td, this is a good link to tuning the 1.9
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 1931086722

Needless to say you should change the cam belt at the same time as you will have to remove it anyway.

Once all this has been done you can run it on vegetable oil if you wont

Hope this helps

Any questons you have I will try to arnser but I'm off on my holls soon so will not be around for a week or so.

For some more info go to
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... 561&page=1

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... #pid142538


Almost forgot unless your car is a 96 modle the rev counter will cutout at 3000rpm but works again once restarted and the engine K light will stay on but you can just remove the bulb from the dash, it's something to do with the ecu that the earlier car don't suffer from.

[wlb]

Great stuff!
Thanks Mark.
Very thorough explanation. Are you saying that the pump will bolt straight on in place of the Lucas pump, and have it's sprocket in correct alignment to take the belt? (My car is a '98 model, by the way).

How common is the 1.9 pump in UK breakers yards these days?

Regards,
Warwick.

[mark21TD]

Yes the pump will bolt straght to the lucas bracket after moveing the studs (but timing it up afterwards may be a problem) or you can bolt the bosch pump and bracket straght on keeping the timing as it is. you will need the bosch sprocket as the lucas one will not fit, the belt will line up with either bracket, you will need to lock the cam/crank/pump into position just the same as when you change the cam belt (which you will have to remove anyway).

There is plenty of bosch pump in the UK, I'd have a look on www.ebay.uk look for one from a 405 as none of these are ecu controled but don't forget you will need all the parts I listed although in OZ you probably wont need the cold start advance unit (the one on my 405 doesn't work and I have no probs in the UK).

[wlb]

Thanks once again Mark.
I've been checking eBay regularly for 405 pumps for several months and haven't seen anything. But I haven't tried eBay UK directly - just an eBay Aus search followed by a general international one. I got my low km Epic pump on eBay from the UK about 2 years ago when the first one started leaking badly. At that time there wasn't as much known here about the problems of these pumps - I seemed to have been one of the early Aus victims. At the time I thought that replacing the pump and using an additive to prevent seal shrinkage due to ULSD would mean no more problems, but I now know that all I did was buy some time.