Hello to all,
Am sure I've been here before but can't remember username or password!
Anyway, I have a 1998 406 D8 estate with drivers side electric window problems (Intermittant operation) - Changed switch unit to no avail. I believe the problem could be either a stiff mechanism, causing the overload to activate, or it is a motor fault itself. Have not removed door card just yet, but would be interested to know if anyone has a experienced a similar fault and/or having knowledge of whether a mk2 (D9) window motor and linkage assy will fit into my earlier model?
Many thanks in anticipation.
Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
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steve_earwig
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
I'm afraid not, one of the passenger windows for the D8 (there's two of each - something to do with having anti-pinch or not) is the same for the D9 but not the driver's side, sorry 
Oh looky, there's one of those pesky relays I've given up trusting in the door. If it's not the relay then the mechanism is the same in a saloon.
Oh looky, there's one of those pesky relays I've given up trusting in the door. If it's not the relay then the mechanism is the same in a saloon.
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007
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Gary406
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
just a bit of advice for when you remove doorcard. you will have to remove the foam seal once the doorcard is off to get access inside of the door
important - make sure you re-seal that foam seal or you will have water running in the car when it rains ..
dont use household silicone. get a tube of TIGERSEAL . its around £8-£10 but is definately worth it
apply a thin bead around the foam . you will see were the old seal was, and put it back in exactly the same place.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TigerSeal-Black-1 ... 3ef2c3229c
its very important that seal gets re-sealed properly and correctly . if the seal gets ripped and torn on removal replacements are around £20 on ebay so its worth taking your time to remove it correctly and try salvage it.
important - make sure you re-seal that foam seal or you will have water running in the car when it rains ..
dont use household silicone. get a tube of TIGERSEAL . its around £8-£10 but is definately worth it
apply a thin bead around the foam . you will see were the old seal was, and put it back in exactly the same place.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TigerSeal-Black-1 ... 3ef2c3229c
its very important that seal gets re-sealed properly and correctly . if the seal gets ripped and torn on removal replacements are around £20 on ebay so its worth taking your time to remove it correctly and try salvage it.
2004 (04) Volkswagen Bora 1.9 TDi (100)
Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Many thanks Steve and Gary, when I get the chance to remove the door card, I shall bear your comments in mind. A wholesalers near me stocks 'Sikaflex' which is good stuff, used extensively in the marine world so should do the job.
Am I right in thinking that the motor assy houses an overload type device to prevent the trapping of fingers and any other body parts, or is this on D9 only?
Thanks again, David.
Am I right in thinking that the motor assy houses an overload type device to prevent the trapping of fingers and any other body parts, or is this on D9 only?
Thanks again, David.
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steve_earwig
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
That's the anti-pinch. Seems like it's and/or on the D8 but standard on the D9. It could be for foreign markets where people aren't so fussed about being able to count to 10 
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Intermittent electrical faults are often just loose connections so may not be so expensive.
It may only be 12V but it's the amphere that kills you!
3Ltr V6 ES9J4S D8
3Ltr V6 ES9J4S D8
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Gary406
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Toasted SikaFlex is an expensive version of Tigerseal 
think there both very similar products. an adhesive and sealant in 1
think there both very similar products. an adhesive and sealant in 1
2004 (04) Volkswagen Bora 1.9 TDi (100)
Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Thanks again for the info chaps. Car in for MOT repairs today, failed on rear outer tie bar ball joints and a brake hose, pretty good considering the age.
The old girl is now at 98000 on an R reg and was initially purchased for it's load carrying capabilities (major house renovation). 5 years on and I still enjoy driving it, the road holding puts many newer cars to shame!
Will pull to bits when back from garage and when the weather allows. @ Lecky, yes could well just be a dodgy connection, the relay is clicking when you push the button - the relay(thanks for the heads up Steve) and/or the motor are suspects, as are all associated wiring and connectors.
Thought I could get away with living with the fault, leaving the window shut until the warmer months but it's getting really annoying!
Thanks again all, will post results on completion.
The old girl is now at 98000 on an R reg and was initially purchased for it's load carrying capabilities (major house renovation). 5 years on and I still enjoy driving it, the road holding puts many newer cars to shame!
Will pull to bits when back from garage and when the weather allows. @ Lecky, yes could well just be a dodgy connection, the relay is clicking when you push the button - the relay(thanks for the heads up Steve) and/or the motor are suspects, as are all associated wiring and connectors.
Thought I could get away with living with the fault, leaving the window shut until the warmer months but it's getting really annoying!
Thanks again all, will post results on completion.
Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
...Just got car back and removed door card for a peek. Typically, the fault has decided to have the day off, but had a look anyway. Cannot see a seperate relay, so I'm thinking it is an integral part of the motor assy. Checked for any mechanical hinderance, none found and with the window now operational, highly unlikely. Unfortunately it started to rain so didn't get to remove the motor so have left the card off to view on a dry day.
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steve_earwig
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
That's probably the best way to tackle an intermittent fault.
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Hello All,
Have now a fully functioning drivers door window, no more embarrassing moments at toll booths or drive throughs!
The fault turned out to be a near broken wire in the door gaitor. The orange main battery feed (B27) was the culprit, it literally was hanging in there by the outer insulation! Obviously some times a good enough contact was made to enable motor operation, other times contact was open cct, hence no operation.
Below is the sequence as I looked into the situation:
At first, fault was not present, so had a visual inspection of the motor and relay/control unit: checked brushes, commutator and general condition - all good (Note window in down position to disconnect regulator assy).
With 12V test probe, tested the feeds present at the motor connector when operating the switch:
Pins:
1 = Battery (or Permanent) +ve. Fed from fuse No.27 (30A)
2 = Not used
3 = Down +ve. Straight from switch (first contact)
4 = Not used
5 = Ignition +ve. Fed from fuse No.28 (10A)
6 = Not used
7 = Down & Up +ve (one touch operation - switch fully depressed). Straight from switch (second contact). The motor 'knows' which direction to spin as there is already a cct through the first set of contacts, indicating direction of travel to the control unit.
8 = Up +ve. Straight from switch (first contact)
9 = Earth (or Battery -ve). To earth terminal in footwell (Note this also supplies -ve's for both window switches (illumination return for both switches and motor operation for the passenger side (no one touch function)).
These all corresponded with the pin out in the Haynes manual
Had cup of tea, went back out, retested - fault present, hurray!
- No +ve feed present at pin 1 on motor connector
- Traced good feed at footwell.
- Retracted rubber gaitor and found suspect wire on very poor state.
- Soldered new wire to good side of cct and 'fished' through gaitor into door.
- Cut into loom at accesible point crimped to existing wire (gas soldering iron now having moments!).
- Retest - OK and refit motor and reg assy.
- Door card back on and final re test - all good, with the added bonus of a 'stronger' upwards motor operation. Obviously when it was intermittant, the connection (when it worked) was still a poor one with high resistance. With nice new connections and a low resistance path, the window now flies up!
Thanks to everyone for all the info and help.
And now beddy byes...
Have now a fully functioning drivers door window, no more embarrassing moments at toll booths or drive throughs!
The fault turned out to be a near broken wire in the door gaitor. The orange main battery feed (B27) was the culprit, it literally was hanging in there by the outer insulation! Obviously some times a good enough contact was made to enable motor operation, other times contact was open cct, hence no operation.
Below is the sequence as I looked into the situation:
At first, fault was not present, so had a visual inspection of the motor and relay/control unit: checked brushes, commutator and general condition - all good (Note window in down position to disconnect regulator assy).
With 12V test probe, tested the feeds present at the motor connector when operating the switch:
Pins:
1 = Battery (or Permanent) +ve. Fed from fuse No.27 (30A)
2 = Not used
3 = Down +ve. Straight from switch (first contact)
4 = Not used
5 = Ignition +ve. Fed from fuse No.28 (10A)
6 = Not used
7 = Down & Up +ve (one touch operation - switch fully depressed). Straight from switch (second contact). The motor 'knows' which direction to spin as there is already a cct through the first set of contacts, indicating direction of travel to the control unit.
8 = Up +ve. Straight from switch (first contact)
9 = Earth (or Battery -ve). To earth terminal in footwell (Note this also supplies -ve's for both window switches (illumination return for both switches and motor operation for the passenger side (no one touch function)).
These all corresponded with the pin out in the Haynes manual
Had cup of tea, went back out, retested - fault present, hurray!
- No +ve feed present at pin 1 on motor connector
- Traced good feed at footwell.
- Retracted rubber gaitor and found suspect wire on very poor state.
- Soldered new wire to good side of cct and 'fished' through gaitor into door.
- Cut into loom at accesible point crimped to existing wire (gas soldering iron now having moments!).
- Retest - OK and refit motor and reg assy.
- Door card back on and final re test - all good, with the added bonus of a 'stronger' upwards motor operation. Obviously when it was intermittant, the connection (when it worked) was still a poor one with high resistance. With nice new connections and a low resistance path, the window now flies up!
Thanks to everyone for all the info and help.
And now beddy byes...
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steve_earwig
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Nicely done 
I've copied this over to the Knowledge Base and retitled it to reflect your solution 
I've copied this over to the Knowledge Base and retitled it to reflect your solution Toasted wrote:These all corresponded with the pin out in the Haynes manual
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007
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Re: Will a D9 Window motor fit a D8?
Cheers for that Steve.
Also worth mentioning, as a warning to anyone who instantly suspects the motor to be the problem (as I did), is the following:
For a while the window operation had been poor, struggling against gravity and the weight of the window when raising the window (high current draw). The motor then started to work intermittantly, cutting out in any position. When the motor would operate, raising the window only occured in spurts, having to constantly operate the switch to get the window to the top. Not sure if that type of operation is intentional (anti pinch?), however it developed into that before finally giving up the ghost!
All of the above symptoms led me to think the motor was the problem, when actually it was the main feed wire struggling to take the load of the motor as the strands gave way over time/door opening & closing.
It is also the easiest place to start when investigating, be sure to give each wire a good tug to check it's integrity.
Note, the degradation (sluggish operation leading to intermittant operation) issues can only be attributed to the main current carrying wires: Orange B27, the main +ve and/or the main -ve (earth) supply, which I can't remember the colour of - sorry!
A break in the Ignition +ve will stop the motor from 'activating'. The ignition feed triggers the relay in the motor assy, allowing operation via the main conductors mentioned above. As this is a low current path, operation with a partial break in the wire will occur with no negative effects. There probably will not be much of a build up or indication of an incoming fault, when all contact is lost, it simply will not operate.
I hope that makes some sort of sense??
David
Also worth mentioning, as a warning to anyone who instantly suspects the motor to be the problem (as I did), is the following:
For a while the window operation had been poor, struggling against gravity and the weight of the window when raising the window (high current draw). The motor then started to work intermittantly, cutting out in any position. When the motor would operate, raising the window only occured in spurts, having to constantly operate the switch to get the window to the top. Not sure if that type of operation is intentional (anti pinch?), however it developed into that before finally giving up the ghost!
All of the above symptoms led me to think the motor was the problem, when actually it was the main feed wire struggling to take the load of the motor as the strands gave way over time/door opening & closing.
It is also the easiest place to start when investigating, be sure to give each wire a good tug to check it's integrity.
Note, the degradation (sluggish operation leading to intermittant operation) issues can only be attributed to the main current carrying wires: Orange B27, the main +ve and/or the main -ve (earth) supply, which I can't remember the colour of - sorry!
A break in the Ignition +ve will stop the motor from 'activating'. The ignition feed triggers the relay in the motor assy, allowing operation via the main conductors mentioned above. As this is a low current path, operation with a partial break in the wire will occur with no negative effects. There probably will not be much of a build up or indication of an incoming fault, when all contact is lost, it simply will not operate.
I hope that makes some sort of sense??
David