E10 Unleaded Fuel
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- Welly
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E10 Unleaded Fuel
Has anyone heard of this new Petrol that the UK has agreed to? E10 has 10% Ethanol (currently 5%) and studies have shown the fuel can cause problems in older engines and small basic engines found in garden-type machines. Ethanol can absorb its own weight in water and then 'shed' the excess water into the fuel tank where it sinks to the bottom and can cause problems with the fuel system. There's no date yet when this stuff will be rolled out, the British Standard has been revised so it's ready to go now but retailers are nervous about demand (it went down like a lead balloon in France and Germany). Large retailers must offer E10 alongside 'normal' unleaded at some point.....with the old stuff slowly being phased out. It seems Super Unleaded may be kept going for a while from what I can tell but you just know where this is heading and it's not great if you want to run older cars or motorbikes.
There's also evidence that a car will suffer a drop in performance due to lower Octane rating (92-ish%) and have increased MPG's by up to 10% but Environmentalists would say that's fine because the Ethanol absorbs CO2 whilst growing in the field
"Ethanol acts as a solvent and can loosen existing deposits in the fuel system, causing fuel pump, hose, filter and fuel injector blockages. It’s also corrosive to some seals, plastics and metals, and can lead to fuel leaks and even engine failure.
As a general rule, cars built after 2002 will be fine, although there are some exceptions
as recent as 2009. All first-generation direct-injection petrol cars, for example, are incompatible with E10 due to the pump’s aluminium content".
- See more at: http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/new-e10 ... YeFyz.dpuf
There's also evidence that a car will suffer a drop in performance due to lower Octane rating (92-ish%) and have increased MPG's by up to 10% but Environmentalists would say that's fine because the Ethanol absorbs CO2 whilst growing in the field
"Ethanol acts as a solvent and can loosen existing deposits in the fuel system, causing fuel pump, hose, filter and fuel injector blockages. It’s also corrosive to some seals, plastics and metals, and can lead to fuel leaks and even engine failure.
As a general rule, cars built after 2002 will be fine, although there are some exceptions
as recent as 2009. All first-generation direct-injection petrol cars, for example, are incompatible with E10 due to the pump’s aluminium content".
- See more at: http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/new-e10 ... YeFyz.dpuf
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- rwb
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Sounds like all the familiar biodiesel scare mongering.
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
decreased economy from what that site says... http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/car-e10 ... ts/1229024 (dacia sandero -11.5%, hyundai i30 -9.8%, prius+ -6.4%, mini paceman -5.9%)Welly wrote:There's also evidence that a car will suffer a drop in performance due to lower Octane rating (92-ish%) and have increased MPG's by up to 10%
Apparently Peugeot say that it shouldn't be used in cars with XU engines, but of course we all know that all petrol's the same so it's clearly bs
<steve_earwig> I think this forum is more about keeping our cars going with minimal outlay than giving our cars more reason to go bang
- Welly
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Sorry, I meant 'worsened' fuel consumption, like 10% worse but it came out wrong.
The 406 HPi won't run on this stuff, nor will *lots* of VAG cars with FSi engines
I looked at Volvo compatibility and it says any Volvo-engine'd Volvo from 1976 will run on E10 I don't like the sound of this stuff and certainly don't want to test it to see what happens.
The 406 HPi won't run on this stuff, nor will *lots* of VAG cars with FSi engines
I looked at Volvo compatibility and it says any Volvo-engine'd Volvo from 1976 will run on E10 I don't like the sound of this stuff and certainly don't want to test it to see what happens.
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- Bailes1992
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
I can imagine this causing massive issues with people who just pick up a pump and fill. People who think petrol is petrol.
Surely if they wanted to lower CO2 emmisions then they would say all new Petrol cars in 3 years time must be able to run on E100! And they would say that in 3 years all diesel cars must be capable of running on B100.
Anyway I'm not worried! It's only an extra 2.5litres of ethanol per 50litre tank! And I've been told by a member in ere you won't be able to tell the difference!
Surely if they wanted to lower CO2 emmisions then they would say all new Petrol cars in 3 years time must be able to run on E100! And they would say that in 3 years all diesel cars must be capable of running on B100.
Anyway I'm not worried! It's only an extra 2.5litres of ethanol per 50litre tank! And I've been told by a member in ere you won't be able to tell the difference!
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Saucer of milk for table two ,Bailes1992 wrote:I can imagine this causing massive issues with people who just pick up a pump and fill. People who think petrol is petrol.
Surely if they wanted to lower CO2 emmisions then they would say all new Petrol cars in 3 years time must be able to run on E100! And they would say that in 3 years all diesel cars must be capable of running on B100.
Anyway I'm not worried! It's only an extra 2.5litres of ethanol per 50litre tank! And I've been told by a member in ere you won't be able to tell the difference!
Yeah it rot's the crap out of bike tanks, because the water sit's under the (petrol) if you can call it that
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Ideally that's what they should do - find a suitable alternative fuel, make it worth producing, force car manufacturers to use it, and sell it alongside regular petrol+diesel with a different coloured nozzle (green=unleaded, black=diesel, yellow=unicorn juice) for at least 10 years before allowing garages to phase out legacy fuels based on commercial demand. The trouble with current biofuel is there's not the supply to meet the demand that would be created - someone's got to grow the crops to make biofuel, and if they're making biofuel, they're not using the land for anything else, like making food: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/m ... ableenergyBailes1992 wrote:Surely if they wanted to lower CO2 emmisions then they would say all new Petrol cars in 3 years time must be able to run on E100! And they would say that in 3 years all diesel cars must be capable of running on B100
Unfortunately, politicians like knee-jerk reactions and instant results, no matter how damaging
<steve_earwig> I think this forum is more about keeping our cars going with minimal outlay than giving our cars more reason to go bang
- Welly
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Why not put Solar Panels in the fields and we can charge up our Electric Cars.........oh wait.
Does anyone else think that with all these Solar Panels absorbing our sunshine that the UK will cool down?
Does anyone else think that with all these Solar Panels absorbing our sunshine that the UK will cool down?
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- steve_earwig
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
It'll heat up - all these solar panels are black...
I'm afraid I can't comment on the E10 thing as all the cars here already run on 50% pig piss
I'm afraid I can't comment on the E10 thing as all the cars here already run on 50% pig piss
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- Doggy
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Can't see what all the fuss is about - it will obviously run perfectly in any engine, unless you fill up at a supermarket.
Don't you guys listen?
Don't you guys listen?
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
There is no such evidence, since 95 RON E10 has exactly the same octane rating as 95 RON E5 and 95 RON straight petrol. Ethanol actually has a relatively high octane rating, so it would make no sense at all for the octane rating to drop when more ethanol is added.Welly wrote: There's also evidence that a car will suffer a drop in performance due to lower Octane rating (92-ish%)
However, ethanol has a lower energy density than petrol, which is probably what you meant. In most cases, fuel-injected engines with a functioning O2 sensor will compensate for this, by making the fuel:air mixture slightly richer compared to what is needed for straight petrol. Hence more fuel by volume is needed, which translates to slightly worse fuel mileage by volume. This will cost you a tiny bit extra at the pump, since we pay for fuel by volume, not by energy content.
Most cars are sufficiently overspecced in the fuel pump and injector compartments that going to E10 wont be a problem in that regard. Tuned cars may need to have higher-flow pumps and bigger injectors put in. Carbed vehicles will need to be rejetted unless they were tuned with a decent safety margin.
The biggest issue still lies with materials. Some rubbers simply perish when exposed to ethanol, and Audi/VW really should have known better with the FSI engines at that point. It's not like they didn't know ethanol was coming. Or perhaps both the 406 HPi and the Audi/VW FSI engines use the same Bosch fuel pump? In which case, Bosch really should have known better.
Both Volvo and Saab were first-movers when it came to adopting ethanol. Most of their cars could be ordered as "flex fuel" versions, which could run on both normal petrol and E85. I don't know if any E100-capable versions were built. I don't know if this flex fuel option is still available, I haven't specced out a new car in ages.Welly wrote:I looked at Volvo compatibility and it says any Volvo-engine'd Volvo from 1976 will run on E10 I don't like the sound of this stuff and certainly don't want to test it to see what happens.
On the slightly less affordable end of the scale, all of Koenigsegg's cars are flex fuel. The Agera R makes 960hp on 95 RON and 1140hp on E85, thanks to both the higher octane rating. which allows running more advanced timing, and the cooling effect that ethanol has.
Never had a problem on my bikes. Then again, I actually ride them instead of just bringing them out for a 10km trip every other month like some people do. Even then, I've had petrol sitting in the tank of my old carbed bike over the winter with no issues at all. Two weeks ago, I primed the carbs, put the choke on full and she started up in less than 10 cranks and ran perfectly fine on that 4-month-old petrol. The newer fuel-injected bike took 3 cranks, exactly the same as on a warm summer's day with fresh petrol in the tank. No rust in either of those bikes' tanks, either.dirtydirtydiesel wrote:Yeah it rot's the crap out of bike tanks, because the water sit's under the (petrol) if you can call it that
I know that some bikes such as Ducatis with their plastic fuel tanks have had problems with swelling and deformed tanks. Then again, those bikes were designed and built after everyone knew that ethanol was coming, so it's really a screwup on Ducati's part.
As an addendum, second generation biofuels are not made from food crops or crops that need to grow on land capable of bearing food crops. They are made from plant and animal waste that would otherwise go unused.
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
I kind of skim read most of the posts but over here in NZ, we have one petrol station (Gull) who provides 'Gull Force 10' which is 98RON and 10% Ethanol. Most car enthusiasts know that this is the best petrol you can put in your car in NZ. Its better for your engine, provides a clean burn and actually increases performance. However, compared to other 98RON petrols, the ethanol blend petrol has a lower fuel economy but probably still more than 95RON or 91RON.
I will never put anything other than Gull 98RON 10% ethanol blend in my cars anymore, especially the ones with the ES9J4S (They respond very well it).
I will never put anything other than Gull 98RON 10% ethanol blend in my cars anymore, especially the ones with the ES9J4S (They respond very well it).
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
I don't think my car will be too happy on it, it's got the Mitsubishi direct injection petrol engine. Bugger!
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- Welly
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Re: E10 Unleaded Fuel
Don't worry teamy, 'normal' fuel will be available for years yet.
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