Can someone with a brain please read this..

[steve_earwig]

Now where does this go? Dunno, here will do.

I was actually looking for some sort of emissions test while DPF-inflicted cars are regenerating because I suspect that the result of burning all the hydrocarbons with cerene in the mix is probably going to be quite toxic. Among all the "DPFs for morons" stuff I came up with this http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/re ... ration.pdf I think it's actually telling me what I wanted to know but it's the most jargon-heavy, unintelligible, piece of crap I've seen in a very long time. I suspect they've even made a lot of words up just to make it more impenetrable. I must confess I lost the will to live about half way down page 6

So, anyone got any idea what it's actually saying?

[lozz]

Ihad a Read of it ..well sort of.

igave up its like driving down one of them ..100 mile stretches of motorway ...unlit
and just goes on and on like whats her face off father ted.

this part was interesting..

quote; A side effect of DPF regeneration is the increased emission of gaseous pollutants and
particulate matter. The contribution of such elevated emissions occurring during regeneration

ah well thats no problem.. mr doggy has an app for that.

[benczuk]

Erm, It emits lots (3 times normal) of particles roughly 10 nano meters in size (of what they don't say, soot? Which i guess is what you wanted to know?) during regen.

But during a standardized emissions test (current or new) it emits two times less particles than a vehicle without one?

note: I scanned the first section then read the conclusion with a lot of help from the key on the last page

[steve_earwig]

3 times? It uses the phrase "orders of magnitude" so it's not actually 3 times, it's so many THOUSANDS OF TIMES as much Which kind of underlines what I said about making it even more impenetrable that it needs to be for some reason.

Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, willfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret

[rwb]

Great find.

Interesting that the emissions during regeneration are included in the tax rating of the vehicle. (If I read that correctly, maybe only for EURO5.)

All studies indicate that the regeneration of th
e DPF results in a significant increase of the
total number of particles emitted.

So does that mean that DPFs are pointless?

The conclusions I don't understand -- what they are saying let alone whether they do indeed follow from the cited literature.
Next I want to see if I can find any of the references to see if they have anything sensible to say...

[Welly]

I think it means modern diesels are sh*t

I saw something similar about the EGR fitted to the latest VAG diesels and that they block up every 60K miles and cause trouble.....the unit cannot be cleaned and is replaced (£400.00 part) and 3 hours labour and all around about the time the DPF and DMF need attention.

A new diesel is akin to being forced to eat your own sh*t.

[OllieNZ]

I'll try find the page later as it was easy to understand. It talks about the two types of dpf. The true filter like in our hdis and the deep bed filter that's finding it's way into newer cars. Our filters trap about 60% of particles 10 micron and under (important because they are respirable into deep lung) and their secondary emissions (which are uncontrolled) during regeneration are pretty horrific.
The newer deep bed filters are made using Nobel metals and the filter is around the outside so can't clog and doesn't need additive to regen and traps around 85% of the particles.

[steve_earwig]

Noble metals

ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum, and gold.

So they'll be disappearing even more than cats are now

[OllieNZ]

Found it
http://www.partikelfilter-fakten.de/en/ ... brand.html

[V6Exec]

Interesting read - but it is only a literature summary.

The figures quoted for the HDi give an increase of 800 (note quite 3 orders of magnitude, but that was for the 407) for total number of particles per cubic cm during regeneration.

The technical compliance weighting (not taxation) is measured by averaging the short duration increase in particle over the time between regenerations.

Even with the additional weighting from the regen, the cars produce far less emissions than previous generations.

That other link appears to be anti-DPF propaganda rather than a serious source of information.

[Rolebama]

I tried to read this. I worked for local Govt for a while back, and discovered then that anyone who felt their job was under threat would produce mind-numbingly boring 'research', that was virtually unreadable due to the gobbley-gook level, in an effort to justify their salary. As to DPFs, of whatever kind, they just save up all the nasties, and when they have decided they have enough, they dump them all in one go.

[steve_earwig]

That other link appears to be anti-DPF propaganda rather than a serious source of information.

I'm glad you understood it all, otherwise I'd carry on suspecting that DPFs are a bad idea disastrously implemented

[V6Exec]

That other link appears to be anti-DPF propaganda rather than a serious source of information.

I'm glad you understood it all, otherwise I'd carry on suspecting that DPFs are a bad idea disastrously implemented

Having a DPF on my car, I did look at a lot of information both for and against it and during that research came across that ill-informed propaganda site. If you read through what they are claiming you will quickly see a few problems with what they present. Not least of which is the very small number of cases listed as examples. I would expect a links page giving sources, but there is none. I would expect a growing list of cases to support their assertions but that too is lacking.

Part of the "scandal" pages covers off road construction equipment and the retrofitment of pre-dpf engines with non-disposable dpfs. There will be charlatans in all walks of life and the retrofit industry no doubt has good an bad guys in it. There will have been a procurement process to select the dpf retrofits which will not have been technically lead (procurement rarely is). The real scandal is that whoever signed the purchase contract failed to understand that you cannot regenerate a dpf on an item of plant. You need to use either disposable filters or removable filters that are regenerated using a furnace or similar.

The "fires" section also seems to deal with retrofit systems as we are all aware that a blocked filter causes limp mode to be operated which prevents that type of fire and the type of engine damage listed on the site.

The German manufacturers did not use an additive system, and relied on a catalysing coating. The regeneration required on those requires much higher temperatures than those required on the PSA engines.

As far as being under-engineered, the PSA systems are actually very well engineered and that propaganda site inadvertantly confirms that. For example it identifies that PAH's are created at 500 centigrade, the PSA regen is below this treshold.

This is a paper issued by Rhodia, so can be considered marketing propaganda, that deals with additive based systems - https://www.dieselnet.com/papers/9909rhodia/ I only post it to give a balance, a sort of right of reply by the manufacturer.