Newbie - I need some advice on which model to buy please

[kiwifraser]

Thank you all for the honest views. The saloon doesn't have quite the appeal of the coupe given what it will primarily be used for (and the coupe looks lovely too), but at the money I do need to consider both. With it mainly being a car for just me to both travel in comfort on 1 or 2 days a week and then enjoy in the weekend, I am coming to terms with the following being within my budget restrictions. Let me know if I have mis-read this for any of your models please...


Saloon 2.0HDi 110 or 2.2HDi guise
+ better for the family on the few occasions I will need it
+ comfortable and great handling car
+ definitely available under budget
+ great mpg
- 110 2.0 not as powerful as the 136 2.2 but it is cheaper
- 'its not a coupe', which I would rather
- the trim levels are definitely not as luxurious (generally not leather).

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Saloon HDi 90 or a Petrol
As above, but slower/ less fun, or more costly for fuel. Not being considered against the better options above which are all within budget.


Coupe 2.0
+ Cheapest option, well under budget
- slow
- bad fuel consumption vs performance (30mpg avg)
- later models are auto only
- ok on the motorway, but not as fun for weekend blasts

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Coupe 2.2
+ newer model
+ better mpg than 2.0 (32mpg)
+ manual front seats in Silver/ Black models
- limited availability
- over budget (but not too much)

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Coupe 3.0 V6
+ obvious power/ torque advantage
+ under budget
+ owners seem to enjoy the handling/ performance more than the lower powered models?
- worst mpg (26mpg)
- expensive cam belt replacement if not done already
- much more costly to maintain than a 2.0/2.2 (I have no examples of how bad this is, but 'get the feeling' from owners posts)

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Coupe 2.2 HDi
+ Best option for motorway miler (44mpg)
+ newer model
+ heavy engine
- expensive, and well over my budget
- most recommend that it is defapped/ mapped (I have no idea of the cost), to get the most from it.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p



It is worth noting that I will have an AA breakdown warranty cover in place which means the first £500 of most repair costs will be covered for AA breakdowns they attend and cannot fix at roadside. This doesn't help for routine maintenance costs, but removes some concern for the inevitable adhoc breakdowns on a 10-12 year old car with 100k miles already covered

Based on all the above, I'm unlikely to find the extra money to fund an HDi Coupe (especially not with funding the defap/ remap), I don't fancy the 90HP saloon diesel or 2.0l petrol, and I would prefer a coupe over a saloon asthetically.

The contenders remaining are:
1 - The V6 and I suck up the extra costs for maintaining/ servicing it. It is still on the consideration list as the extra fuel will be mostly covered by the company allowance anyway as it comes into a higher payment bracket for a 2.5l+ petrol.
2 - The 2.2 petrol, and I splash out the extra £400-£500 hundred quid up front.
3 - The HDi Saloon, which means I don't have a coupe, but do fulfill all the other 'wants'.

[OdinEidolon]

Neat considerations. Bear in mind that the only cost of a remap+defap is a couple of hours and a Galletto 1260. Less than 20£

EDIT: consider another cons of V6 and HDi coupés. They have the much more powerful Brembo brake setup, which is nice, but it also need constant attention and occasional rebuilds, as it is much more prone to nasty noises and damage than the stock brakes, which are definitely less powerful but sufficient.

REEDIT: Again, think about running costs. Coupés are generally more expensive to mantain, since they have more luxuries inside that can (and eventually will, bless French electrics) break. Also bumpers are much more fragile than those of the saloon.

If you have the time and passion to have a coupé, then do. I think it is worth it, every time I see a coupé I'm a little bit envy. They also have the advantage that there is that amazing support forum (2 forums is better than one) and most importantly that it has a dedicated breaker known under the nickname of Ade1122 that will be able to supply whatever replacement part you'll ever need.

[waue1978]

Thank you all for the honest views. The saloon doesn't have quite the appeal of the coupe given what it will primarily be used for (and the coupe looks lovely too), but at the money I do need to consider both. With it mainly being a car for just me to both travel in comfort on 1 or 2 days a week and then enjoy in the weekend, I am coming to terms with the following being within my budget restrictions. Let me know if I have mis-read this for any of your models please...


Saloon 2.0HDi 110 or 2.2HDi guise
+ better for the family on the few occasions I will need it
+ comfortable and great handling car
+ definitely available under budget
+ great mpg
- 110 2.0 not as powerful as the 136 2.2 but it is cheaper
- 'its not a coupe', which I would rather
- the trim levels are definitely not as luxurious (generally not leather).

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Saloon HDi 90 or a Petrol
As above, but slower/ less fun, or more costly for fuel. Not being considered against the better options above which are all within budget.


Coupe 2.0
+ Cheapest option, well under budget
- slow
- bad fuel consumption vs performance (30mpg avg)
- later models are auto only
- ok on the motorway, but not as fun for weekend blasts

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Coupe 2.2
+ newer model
+ better mpg than 2.0 (32mpg)
+ manual front seats in Silver/ Black models
- limited availability
- over budget (but not too much)

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Coupe 3.0 V6
+ obvious power/ torque advantage
+ under budget
+ owners seem to enjoy the handling/ performance more than the lower powered models?
- worst mpg (26mpg)
- expensive cam belt replacement if not done already
- much more costly to maintain than a 2.0/2.2 (I have no examples of how bad this is, but 'get the feeling' from owners posts)

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p


Coupe 2.2 HDi
+ Best option for motorway miler (44mpg)
+ newer model
+ heavy engine
- expensive, and well over my budget
- most recommend that it is defapped/ mapped (I have no idea of the cost), to get the most from it.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p



It is worth noting that I will have an AA breakdown warranty cover in place which means the first £500 of most repair costs will be covered for AA breakdowns they attend and cannot fix at roadside. This doesn't help for routine maintenance costs, but removes some concern for the inevitable adhoc breakdowns on a 10-12 year old car with 100k miles already covered

Based on all the above, I'm unlikely to find the extra money to fund an HDi Coupe (especially not with funding the defap/ remap), I don't fancy the 90HP saloon diesel or 2.0l petrol, and I would prefer a coupe over a saloon asthetically.

The contenders remaining are:
1 - The V6 and I suck up the extra costs for maintaining/ servicing it. It is still on the consideration list as the extra fuel will be mostly covered by the company allowance anyway as it comes into a higher payment bracket for a 2.5l+ petrol.
2 - The 2.2 petrol, and I splash out the extra £400-£500 hundred quid up front.
3 - The HDi Saloon, which means I don't have a coupe, but do fulfill all the other 'wants'.

I'm getting a definite vibe that it's a coupe that you want, so here's my best suggestions.

Forget the V6 unless you can do a lot of maintenance yourself - I've heard cambelt & water pump is a £1000 job on top of all the extra fuel you'll use. That knocks you down to the 2.2HDi, 2.2 petrol & 2.0 petrol. If you do a lot of town running, the HDi will need the defap as it will clog quickly & won't go through all the cleaning regeneration crap. If you don't do a hefty mileage though, the 2.2 or the 2.0 petrols will serve you well & a good low mileage 2.0 will be cheap enough to buy in the first place to cover off any extra you'd be paying in fuel.

[highlander]

The 2.2 petrol can do decent mileage. I can get nearly 600 miles out of mine and I don't exactly drive it like an old woman.

My Coupe is my daily driver; I get caught in hour-long traffic jams to/from work every day (I bless my Sony BlueTooth head unit, my HTC Desire phone, and the JBL speaker system). The car will get 350 miles out of the tank if I never go out of town.

I take the car for a good long blast along the dual carriageways at least once a week if I can. I always put Shell FuelSave stuff in it (the V-Power stuff costs too much for me); Esso stuff doesn't seem to agree with it (noticeably worse range from the tank, and the car doesn't feel as sprightly), and I will never put supermarket fuel in there.

The most expensive cost for this car for me is insurance - but I've only been driving since September 2007 (I just turned 31), and I only have 2 years NCB built-up (had a small bump the first week after I got my first car (Mk.1 Renault Clio 1.2 "Panache"), and couldn't pay the £800 of paintwork damage I'd incurred on the other driver). My annual insurance is around £750 - £850 at the moment. Hopefully this will go down when I get my next renewal, but considering I've added a PowerFlow exhaust to the car, I am thinking my next renewal will involve a lot of phoning around and begging. Insurance companies are utter bastards.

[waue1978]

(I bless my Sony BlueTooth head unit, my HTC Desire phone, and the JBL speaker system).

I thought there were supposed to be complications trying to change the head unit in JBL equipped models. Was it a straight swap as normal?

As far as buying goes, I reckon some test drives are in order. Take a couple for a spin so you can see the differences between the 2.2 & 2.0 petrols & even try out a V6 to see if the extra power would be worth the extra cost for you. Also try out a 2.2HDi - I can testify to how quick they feel from my old C5 & Doggy's defap with a 180bhp remap has a fantastic spread of power, but there is a vibration that (we suspect) comes from the dual mass flywheel when you put your foot down at low revs in 4th or 5th gear.

[sirwiggum]

I didn't find the HDi 90 that slow, but then I was pottering though town and the last diesel I had was XUD and a brief spell with an XUDT.

Supposedly the 90s didn't bind the rear discs, though mine had a combination drum / disc for the handbrake / footbrake respectively.

Other than that the 90s didn't have dual mass flywheels to go wrong.

[kiwifraser]

The 2.2 petrol can do decent mileage. I can get nearly 600 miles out of mine and I don't exactly drive it like an old woman.

My Coupe is my daily driver; I get caught in hour-long traffic jams to/from work every day (I bless my Sony BlueTooth head unit, my HTC Desire phone, and the JBL speaker system). The car will get 350 miles out of the tank if I never go out of town.

That sounds pretty damn good to me. I have a Volvo 2.5 D5 Diesel S80 that is getting replaced, and it does about 700 miles on a tank on the motorway... not much more than you. Mind you, that is generally on cruise at 85-90 in the middle of the night ;)

[kiwifraser]

If you do a lot of town running, the HDi will need the defap as it will clog quickly & won't go through all the cleaning regeneration crap.

Considering I will be primarily doing high motorway mileage on a weekly basis, and very minimal town running , does this mean I should have no issues with the FAP on an HDi, or am I reading this completely wrong?

[highlander]

(I bless my Sony BlueTooth head unit, my HTC Desire phone, and the JBL speaker system).

I thought there were supposed to be complications trying to change the head unit in JBL equipped models. Was it a straight swap as normal?

I ended up taking it to an audio specialist in Glasgow (Hannah Autosound) where a guy fitted it for me. The setup goes a bit like this:

| Aftermarket HU | -> male ISO block to female RCA cable -> | 10:1 speaker level to line level converter | -> male RCA to female ISO block cable -> car's male ISO block connector

This results in the sound being amplified to speaker-level by your HU as normal, but then being reduced to line-level again by the 10:1 converter, before being passed to the JBL unit through the car's built-in wiring. The JBL amp then amplifies the signal as usual and passes the speaker-level outputs to the speakers.

[OdinEidolon]

If you do a lot of town running, the HDi will need the defap as it will clog quickly & won't go through all the cleaning regeneration crap.

Considering I will be primarily doing high motorway mileage on a weekly basis, and very minimal town running , does this mean I should have no issues with the FAP on an HDi, or am I reading this completely wrong?

The FAP will always give problem. It's an overstimated underengineered component. And pretty expensive to mantain, cerene additive isn't cheap.
BUT... you can defap and remap a 2.2HDi with minimal expense (as I told you about 20£ max if you do it yourself), resulting in a 400Nm 180bhp car that will give you 50+mpg on the motorway (mine does 60 on the motorway at 70mph, and is not remapped - yet). The remap, despite adding to the power of the engine, does not seem to lead the engine use more fuel. On the opposite, elimination of the FAP restriction and the need to clean it will lead to better economy. As you can see in my sig you can do 50MPG on a non remapped one, I think you could average 55 on a remapped one, with some attention.

By the way, the remap also has its cons: although the engine can easily support it (the base of the engine is the same now used for much more powerful PSA diesels), the turbo pipes seem to be the weak spot, together with vacuum pipes concerned. These problems are often very cheap to fix while very difficult to diagnose. However, there is a GREAT guide on the coupé forums on how to do that yourself, if you have the time and the passion to do so.

I think the best engines for the 406, no matter which body type, are the two 2.2: the diesel and the petrol one. Test drive some, do some maths for economy and maitenance.
Both are reliable, with the HDI suffering from said problems: FAP, vacuum pipes and valves etc, but giving you an astonishing engine which will let you cruise long distances without a hitch, and will last forever if well serviced (not as long as a XUD!). I know of a 2.2HDI with 500k miles.

[waue1978]

If you do a lot of town running, the HDi will need the defap as it will clog quickly & won't go through all the cleaning regeneration crap.

Considering I will be primarily doing high motorway mileage on a weekly basis, and very minimal town running , does this mean I should have no issues with the FAP on an HDi, or am I reading this completely wrong?

Not completely wrong. You will eventually have issues when it runs out of additive or when it's natural replacement time comes, but at least if you are doing mostly long motorway runs the regeneration cycle should run naturally (it needs to get warmed up to do it). Removal is obviously the best solution in the long run, but it should give you that bit of time to get it sorted if you're doing good runs that keep it clear.

The other thing to remember while the FAP is in place is to only fill up with fuel (& open the fuel flap) when it is absolutely necessary. Every time you do this, a little bit of the additive is injected into the fuel tank, so if you keep topping the fuel up by little bits you end up using all the additive up & you also end up with an unhealthy mix in the fuel tank.

[kiwifraser]

The other thing to remember while the FAP is in place is to only fill up with fuel (& open the fuel flap) when it is absolutely necessary. Every time you do this, a little bit of the additive is injected into the fuel tank, so if you keep topping the fuel up by little bits you end up using all the additive up & you also end up with an unhealthy mix in the fuel tank.

I love owners forum's. This is the sort of information you don't tend to find out anywhere else

[sirwiggum]

The other thing to remember while the FAP is in place is to only fill up with fuel (& open the fuel flap) when it is absolutely necessary.

There must be a mechanism that, when the fuel flap is open, releases FAP mix into the tank.

Therefore, there must be a way of disabling the fuel flap FAP mechanism?

Glue / clamp / break it off?

[OdinEidolon]

The other thing to remember while the FAP is in place is to only fill up with fuel (& open the fuel flap) when it is absolutely necessary.

There must be a mechanism that, when the fuel flap is open, releases FAP mix into the tank.

Therefore, there must be a way of disabling the fuel flap FAP mechanism?

Glue / clamp / break it off?

I think that it's sufficient that your ECU senses fuel has been added to the tank. By the way my HDi does not say "fuel cap open!" when it is. So probably it's not a standard sensor on all models?

However that's not the point. Stopping the cerene from being injected will only clog the filter and eventually damage your engine. The only way to stop FAP annoyance is to remove the FAP itself and remap the ecu so that it doesn't know the car is FAP equipped.

[highlander]

By the way my HDi does not say "fuel cap open!" when it is

Lucky you! My petrol-engined car says my fuel cap is open, even when it isn't!