Small engines in big cars?

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DaiRees
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Small engines in big cars?

Post by DaiRees »

What are your thoughts on the current trend, driven by emissions legislation, whereby manufacturers are putting tuned-up smaller engines into big cars?

I'm noticing more and more 1600cc turbo diesels in large family cars for example. For my driving style I think it'd be fine, I spend 95% of the time in the car on my own with hardly any luggage and I usually roll along at 70 on the cruise, so really fancy a big comfy car that'll do 60+ mpg and be cheap to tax. I do live in Wales though, so if I found myself having to change down gears to climb hills on A roads etc I'd be really annoyed! What worries me most though is that the engine will struggle to lug a big car about and therefore be unreliable and end up costing more in the long run....

Wadda you reckon?
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by sirwiggum »

I think the 1.6 HDi in the 407 got a bad rep, hauling around a big car like that.

I was reading a review of the Skoda Rapid 1.6TDi, they said the engine was unrefined as it had to be caned everywhere, but it did return 65MPG.

Suppose its alright if its a fleet, but for a private buyer it mightnt be worth it. The engine is going to be more stressed than a big lazy engine. Thats why diesels used to be so reliable back in the old days was that they rarely got stressed.
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by lozz »

The smallest diesel engine ive drove is the 1.6hdi it pulled alright, but that was in a Breadvan. (partner)

alot of these smaller engines seem to be getting more horses than say a 2.0
things are getting better, there will be no need for big engines shortly
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by Doggy »

I think you're instinct's right Dai. Yes, they can get high specific outputs from small engines, but I seriously doubt their longevity.

Of more immediate concern for the potential new(ish) car owner is the very narrow useable power band many of these units have, only made borderline acceptable by 6 or more gears.

Rwb did a good comparison a while back, where he demonstrated that a 2.0 HDi 90 had better power & torque in most circumstances than the 1.6 HDi 110.

You don't get owt for nowt, or a quart out of a pint pot, IMHO
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by Welly »

Volvo's 1.6HDi Drive E? something or other runs 2.3 bar of boost pressure :shock:

Similar issues, a bit rough feeling, 'peaky', works hard but good MPG.

I think engines themselves are very tough. Precise manufacturing, Oil Technology and material strength has waved goodbye to Piston Ring wear, knocking Big-Ends and Camshaft clatter so it is likely, with careful maintenance, that these small engines will be perfectly suited to whatever you throw at them............BUT if you're old skool like me you'd be thinking "bigger engine = less stress" :|

Maybe we need to cut free from old principles and 'go with the flow' on this.

My mechanic keeps very well informed and believes Diesel Engines in passenger cars will cease being an option within the next few years. It's almost as if they've taken Diesel as far as possible now and any further emissions control will make them uneconomic to own.

How many times have you considered 'giving the car a run' or 'blow away the cobwebs' well with these little motors it's all done for you :P seriously there's nothing you can do about all this and it's all down to money at the end of the day. If you wanna run a big engine then pay for it.....and pay you will :frown:

*glances over at Volvo road tax reminder, oh look £148.50 for 6 or £270.00 for 12 months

Grrrrrrrr
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by lozz »

Good point that on the Emisions thing,

not sure if all will end up this way, but My insurer goes off emisions as well as Risks,
not sure why on the emisions thing but it Makes a differnce, :?
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by gumby6371 »

My good ladies 307 is the 1.6hdi 110 and for the kind of driving she does is fine and road tax is half what I pay.
When I drive it however I hate it, the gearing is way too tall, my XUD will happily move up the gearbox at 1500 rpm (or less when I play the how high a gear can I get with no right foot game) and only ever touches 3000 rpm on the motorway or occasionally gunning it in first at a junction, her 307 stutters if you upshift below 2500 rpm.
saying that, it sat on the motorway yesterday doing 65/70 in 4th and didn't break 2500 rpm (monthly DPF regen outing) so mpg's are fantastic.
I'm sure you'd get used to it pretty quick but I look like a learner when I drive it. I fuel it up for her once a month and I stall it every time trying to pull away on tickover like I do in mine :oops:
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by sirwiggum »

I agree with Welly, I reckon diesels are going out of fashion too.
They'll end up back like they were in the 80s, where they were a niche choice and the diesel pump was at the trucks end of the forecourt.
The emissions controls are strangling them.
These small petrols with 3 cylinders and a big turbo, along with hybrid tech are the future.

Mind you, the Kia Ceed with the 1.1 diesel gives out 88mpg, something like the AX used to.
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by lozz »

ahandy thing to work out mpg between differnt cars etc,

http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/11 ... al-5-speed
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by scotty73 »

gumby6371 wrote:My good ladies 307 is the 1.6hdi 110 and for the kind of driving she does is fine and road tax is half what I pay.
When I drive it however I hate it, the gearing is way too tall, my XUD will happily move up the gearbox at 1500 rpm (or less when I play the how high a gear can I get with no right foot game) and only ever touches 3000 rpm on the motorway or occasionally gunning it in first at a junction, her 307 stutters if you upshift below 2500 rpm.
saying that, it sat on the motorway yesterday doing 65/70 in 4th and didn't break 2500 rpm (monthly DPF regen outing) so mpg's are fantastic.
I'm sure you'd get used to it pretty quick but I look like a learner when I drive it. I fuel it up for her once a month and I stall it every time trying to pull away on tickover like I do in mine :oops:
I was going to say 307, a family in my street has one i think it's a 1.4 diesel did they make them? if not it's a 1.6 and their son loves driving it and gets cracking 60 plus mpg.

To slow for Dai though methinks. :wink:
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by sirwiggum »

lozz wrote:ahandy thing to work out mpg between differnt cars etc,

http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/11 ... al-5-speed
http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/65 ... ic-4-speed

64/100
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by Welly »

55/100 here :oops:
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by rwb »

Here are the power and torque curves.

The weedy green line at the bottom is the 1.6 HDi 110.
A HDi 90 is obviously better. The 2.0 110 is obviously a lot better again---and by more than the numbers "90" and "110" suggest.

Clearly, you'll have to thrash the 1.6 to get owt out of it and this must surely translate into short life.

In the last 10 years the 2.0 diesel has got more efficient in terms of the power ouptut, but not in terms of the MPG you can achieve.

The perverse thing about the emissions requirements is that you can burn as much fuel as you like; they only measure what is emitted. (So, for example, if your vehicle can only do 30MPG but have a really effective DPF then you can get down to a low tax band.)

As for hilly areas: dragging my 90 round West Yorkshire is hard work. If I lived there I'd be after a 2.2 where the power and torque keep coming after 2000rpm, or even a petrol :shock:

Current: 407 2.2 HDi 170 & C6 2.7 HDi.
Former: 406 1.9 TD; 406 HDi 90; 407 2.2 160; 307cc 180; 508 HDi 140.
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by DaiRees »

Cheers guys, all good, thought provoking responses.

I think I have to do a bit more internet research and I know one guy who has a new 1.6 diesel mondeo so I'll have a chat with him about what it's like to live with.

My Pug scores 50/100, pretty good I reckon :D http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/11 ... al-5-speed
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Re: Small engines in big cars?

Post by scotty73 »

rwb wrote:Here are the power and torque curves.


As for hilly areas: dragging my 90 round West Yorkshire is hard work. If I lived there I'd be after a 2.2 where the power and torque keep coming after 2000rpm, or even a petrol :shock:
My old little yellow fiesta 1.1 d reg could handle these Welsh valleys better than the 406 but it weighed less than a newborn baby and was as comfortable as sitting on rusty nails.

Cracking car that no trouble at all until it gained the knickname "yellow submarine" :lol:
2000 W 2.0hdi 110 7 seat estate Blue.
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