Infuriating engine management issues

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heavy2135
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Infuriating engine management issues

Post by heavy2135 »

Hi all, this is my first post on any sort of forum so please be patient with me and i hope i get this right. My problem is as follows : my car is a 406 2.0 110 hdi on a 1999 T plate with as of today 188021 miles and over the last three months it has become a complete nightmare.
I brought it just over 2 years ago and it was my second pug ( the first being a 1.9 td 306) i went for a 406 2.0 hdi because i needed it to tow a caravan, when i picked it up all was good it drove well no knocks, bangs or clunks and seemed to have power well on par with my 306 anyway. So first trip with the caravan and thats when the problem started yep under load mil light on limp home mode !! made it to the camp site fortunatley not far and parked up left it over night ( it was dark when we arrived ) but the next day it was ok , no light and no problems that was 18 months ago and i have been chasing myself in circles ever since and despite being an hgv mechanic i have reached the end of my ideas and my teather if i'm honest.
So the current problem is as follows: over the past 3-4 months in an effort to cure it's woes ready to tow again this year i have : Checked all the vaccum hoses and pipe work both visually and with a vacuum tester, checked the vacuum on both egr and waste gate control valves and the ohms resistance (one good one bad) changed the bad one.
Next removed the bottom intercooler pipe to check for oil misting from the turbo as suggested else where on this forum quite a bite of oil was found !! ahh i thought pipes off, intercooler out, good proper clean job done.. nope still has ittermitant mil light but no limp mode just down on power.
Removed and cleaned the EGR valve, not really that bad but hey now i was getting desperate. Result no real difference.
Investigated why i was getting oil in the bottom pipe and now by this stage top pipe and the intake manifold.. Yep you guessed it failed turbo oil seal. No smoke as oil was weeping into the inlet side not the exhaust side, when i took the top pipe off the inlet was thick with oil sludge That's not going to help !!! So a weekend spent removing old turbo, pipe work, intercooler, inlet ect cleaning all pipework inlet AGAIN.. replaced turbo with a secondhand unit with a 12 month warranty complete with manifold and egr valve (which i tested before it went on. all good) reasembled with all new gaskets primed turbo with oil and all done. Result ahh better but still down on power but no mil light.
Ok getting somewhere, spoke to a mate who worked on pugs as a young man and still had a mate who was now a senior tech at a peugeot main dealer who suggested looking at the MAF sensor as the could give the symptoms, lack of power, slow to rev and loss of power under load. took it to a garage for a full code read (my OBD 2 hand held just wasn't going to be up to this one !!) various codes found including the normal glow plug after heat ect but also several relating to the MAF could be because it had been unplugged so many times. reset and cleared the codes and started her up.. glow plug again, but also airflow code that'll be the mass air flow he said..
OK ordered and fitted new MAF OE part from a uk based company, That was last night. Took her for a run Mil light on, but power was back and she pulled really well. All was good with the world :) Even better this morning started up, No MIL light and drove great to work, it's so nice not having to change to 3rd to get up any slight climb. My life was great car fixed, sun shining, and best of all wife of my case about wether " That heap will tow the caravan this weekend"
On the way to work i get a phone call, i'm not needed, no vehicle available for me to use ( perk of being an agency driver i assume lol) so i carry on the last 5 mile to get my paperwork signed "you booked me, you pay me !!" Grab a coffee and set of home. 4-5 miles into my journey climbing a slight hill and suddenly massive loss of power accompanied by a hell of a knocking and runnning really rough, NO NO NO NO NO check the mirror, cloud of sooty smoke, browny grey not black or white and no throttle response. Limped it up to the flat. turned her off sharpish and lept out and opened the bonnet expecting to find all sorts of carnage....and well nothing really, all appears well. Pipes, plugs and hoses are where they are supposed to be. Checked oil level, spot on the money. Ok what the hell?? fingers crossed turned the key and well nothing really bad ?? but now the revs climb to about 1500-1800 rpm with out me doing anything and operating the throttle either by pedal or by hand under the bonnet has any effect. diconnected the MAF. no effect
OK so i limped it home, pulls well enough as it made it home just on high tickover with me just using the gears to control the speed. Straight to the garage who read the codes last time and showed him the problem.. Head scraching, chin rubbing erm ?? plug in the snap on diagnostic box and this what we get... P1404
P0100
P1614
P0221
P0121
P0236
P0190
OMG what is happening here i've gone from 3 codes and problem solved to mechanical armageddon and more codes than you can shake a stick at in the space of 24 hrs

So guys that is my problem the guy at the garage have not got a clue !! I am running (well truth be told have run out) of money to through at it and would really really appriciated any help or advice you kind folk can offer, as i'm sure will my wife and kids who at the moment look like they have just lost their bank holiday away in the caravan !!!! And i have to tell her when she gets home from work :( :( :( :(

Many thanks in advance Dave.
Last edited by heavy2135 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HGV's are so much easier to hit with a big hammer.
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lozz
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by lozz »

P1404= Egr fault code.

perhaps egr is blocked.
...................................

the other codes id just clear and see if they come back,
heavy2135
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by heavy2135 »

lozz wrote:P1404= Egr fault code.

perhaps egr is blocked.
...................................

the other codes id just clear and see if they come back,
i was thinking along the same lines but the egr valve was tested before fitting 2 week ends ago and that wouldn't explain the loss of throttle control and the constant revs at 1300 rpm... or would it i really don't know anymore :oops:
HGV's are so much easier to hit with a big hammer.
GingerMagic
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by GingerMagic »

Hi, welcome to the forum...

P0100 - This is because the MAF was unplugged...
P1614 - SBDS Interactive Codes, I have no idea what this means.. :wink:
P0221 - Throttle/Petal Position Sensor/Switch B Circuit Range/Performance Problem - seems true if the TPS is on the blink.
P0121 - Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Range/Performance Problem - see above....
P0236 - Turbocharger Boost Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance, This could be a separate issue but may be connected to the lack of communication from the TPS
P0190 - Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Malfunction, maybe this is what caused the spluttering.

Check the connections on the Fuel Rail sensor, and also the throttle position sensor. Maybe unplug and plug in the ECU connectors to make sure it sits nice and tight.

Maybe there is a common fuse / relay that serves all of the above which has gone tits up? I can't find one in the Haynes BOL though..
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
heavy2135
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by heavy2135 »

GingerMagic wrote:Hi, welcome to the forum...

P0100 - This is because the MAF was unplugged...
P1614 - SBDS Interactive Codes, I have no idea what this means.. :wink:
P0221 - Throttle/Petal Position Sensor/Switch B Circuit Range/Performance Problem - seems true if the TPS is on the blink.
P0121 - Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Range/Performance Problem - see above....
P0236 - Turbocharger Boost Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance, This could be a separate issue but may be connected to the lack of communication from the TPS
P0190 - Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Malfunction, maybe this is what caused the spluttering.

Check the connections on the Fuel Rail sensor, and also the throttle position sensor. Maybe unplug and plug in the ECU connectors to make sure it sits nice and tight.

Maybe there is a common fuse / relay that serves all of the above which has gone tits up? I can't find one in the Haynes BOL though..
Cheers mate, :) :) i am really running out of ideas on this one, i spoke to a local auto electrician this after noon gave me some advice and said it could be a fuse that controls power to the sensors, problem is i don't have a diagram as to what fuses in the engine bay fuse box control what, and don't really want to start radomlly pocking for fear of making things worse, (If that is possible lol)

problem is i still have a day at work before the bank holiday, we are supposed to be going away this weekend with the caravan and the earliest any one can look at it is wednesday next week. At the cost of 59.99 for an hours labour, diagnostic and investigation seemed reasonable. but i'm still pretty much stuffed :( :(
HGV's are so much easier to hit with a big hammer.
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Doggy
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by Doggy »

Hi there,

That's quite a tale of woe. Ordinarily, I would suggest you add your location in the hope someone nearby with PP2000 could have a look for you - it tends to be a lot more effective than a generic OBD reader - the fault descriptions are much more detailed - and allows you to look at the live data, which can be a big help.

As you're up against it time-wise there's not so many things you can try, but I would:
Blank the egr, (at least temporarily to positively eliminate it).
Have a good long look at all the engine sensor wiring, particularly ground connections as you seem to have some odd and inconsitent behaviour.
With the ignition off, unplug / re-plug all the sensors on your list of suspects.
Your latest problem sounds like a possible injection timing issue, so check the crank and cam sensors aren't loose, (they don't usually fail).

Hope you get it sorted / enjoy your weekend.
2002 HDi 2.2 Exec Estate, (2008-12) (wonderful)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
GingerMagic
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by GingerMagic »

Any progress??

I was thinking that maybe you should take a picture of the fuse box under the bonnet, and then check each fuse and relay one by one.

Clutching at straws a bit I know....
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
heavy2135
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Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by heavy2135 »

Hi guys just a quick update, thanks for all for your help it's been great you really are all a great bunch :) . We managed to get away for the weekend, with a huge thank you to a friend who had a tow car he wasn't using for the weekend :) :) Any way we are back now and have just taken the pug tub down to the dark magician,, sorry auto electrician who seems to think it is nothing too major as although it's running at a very high tickover 1300-1800 rpm it is running really smooth, with no knocking, stuttering or injector rattle so fingers crossed. he said he will look at it today and let me know so hopefully i will have an update later..
HGV's are so much easier to hit with a big hammer.
heavy2135
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Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by heavy2135 »

heavy2135 wrote:
GingerMagic wrote:Hi, welcome to the forum...

P0100 - This is because the MAF was unplugged...
P1614 - SBDS Interactive Codes, I have no idea what this means.. :wink:
P0221 - Throttle/Petal Position Sensor/Switch B Circuit Range/Performance Problem - seems true if the TPS is on the blink.
P0121 - Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Range/Performance Problem - see above....
P0236 - Turbocharger Boost Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance, This could be a separate issue but may be connected to the lack of communication from the TPS
P0190 - Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Malfunction, maybe this is what caused the spluttering.

Check the connections on the Fuel Rail sensor, and also the throttle position sensor. Maybe unplug and plug in the ECU connectors to make sure it sits nice and tight.

Maybe there is a common fuse / relay that serves all of the above which has gone tits up? I can't find one in the Haynes BOL though..
Cheers mate, :) :) i am really running out of ideas on this one, i spoke to a local auto electrician this after noon gave me some advice and said it could be a fuse that controls power to the sensors, problem is i don't have a diagram as to what fuses in the engine bay fuse box control what, and don't really want to start radomlly pocking for fear of making things worse, (If that is possible lol)

problem is i still have a day at work before the bank holiday, we are supposed to be going away this weekend with the caravan and the earliest any one can look at it is wednesday next week. At the cost of 59.99 for an hours labour, diagnostic and investigation seemed reasonable. but i'm still pretty much stuffed :( :(
Cheers Gingermagic and co. i have good news the pug tub lives to fight another day, you were pretty much in the right area. I took it down to my local auto electrician yesterday told him what had been changed and what had been checked and he seemed pretty confident he could find the fault. :D

anyway less than one hour after i dropped the old girl off i got a phone call, " Hi dave it's simon, do you want your car back ? " ok is it terminal then ? nope mate all done runs like a dream and drives really well, Brilliant how much do i owe you " call it 50 quid " :) :) :)
The cause ?? A COMMON EARTH FAULT TO THE ECU !! replace the faulty earth with a new one put in the engine loom, and it's a proper job you wouldn't know it had been done unless you were shown it.

So the moral off this tale is for me is .. If you are getting a series of apperently unrelated sensor faults get a decent auto elec to trace all the earth links it turns out that not only do the MAF, TPS and MAP sensor share a common earth it's also linked to the glow plug, fuel rail and fuel pump circuit. all through a common earth direct to the ecu.

Also just because a garage has a 5000 pound snap on code reader doesn't mean they know how to use it !!!! all the information was there for them to see, but they couldn't see it for looking. They thought that the turbo had failed or that the egr or mass needed changing despite me telling them they had been changed, and they couldn't explain why any off that would stop the throttle working.

I can't belive that i missed an earth fault but i think i got abit blinded by science and missed the basics, as i always say when i did my city and guilds. It was " Suck, squeeze, bang, blow" no one mentioned computer says no !

So again thank you guys for all your help and hopefully i will be able to return the favour one day :) I
HGV's are so much easier to hit with a big hammer.
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Doggy
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by Doggy »

Good news! Nice to hear you've got it sorted. 8)
2002 HDi 2.2 Exec Estate, (2008-12) (wonderful)
2003 HDi 2.2 6-speed Exec Estate (2012-19) (also a gem)
2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi VTR+ Estate (godawful heap)
2008 BMW E91 330i touring (great fun - murdered by a reversing SUV)
2007 BMW E91 325i touring (slower smoother quieter)
heavy2135
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by heavy2135 »

cheers doggy
HGV's are so much easier to hit with a big hammer.
GingerMagic
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by GingerMagic »

Glad its sorted Dave... 8)

I can't take any credit for the fix, but it seems you should definitely put the auto-electrician on your Christmas Card list....

Can you post a picture of where the said dodgy earth is ( was ) just for the record?
2003 2.2hdi estate - mine
1998 Volvo 940 auto estate - also mine
2019 Citroen C3 something - the wife's
PP2000 user, can help with faults / diagnostics in the Bournemouth area.
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Welly
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Re: Infuriating engine management issues

Post by Welly »

heavy2135 wrote:turns out that not only do the MAF, TPS and MAP sensor share a common earth it's also linked to the glow plug, fuel rail and fuel pump circuit. all through a common earth direct to the ecu.
That was actually a recall job in the early HDi days, if customers were getting spurious Engine Light faults the dealer would separate the earths so at least the MAF and TPS gained their own earths and it usually sorted the fault for good.
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