Clutch problem, or engine mount problem.

[djheath]

There have been a few threads on the lower engine mount on here, so I thought I would add another for good measure!

I bought my MK 2 1999 1.8 16v 406 in February and when I test drove it, the clutch was quite heavy (cable driven) and juddered a bit when pulling away in first. I thought this problem was down to me driving an automatic for a few weeks before buying this car and thought I had just forgotten how to use the clutch!!

Anyway, the judder hasn't ever really gone away and I want to determine if the judder is from the clutch or the lower engine mount. The judder happens when pulling away in first gear but will not happen if I rev the car a little higher - say 2000 rpm. Here is some other info:

From the receipts that came with the car, it had a new clutch fitted 20,000 miles ago.
There is no change in noise when the car is idling, with the car out of gear, and the clutch is then pressed down, so indicating no release bearing problems.
The clutch doesn't slip at all. Going up hills with a full load is quick and smooth. Letting the clutch out in 1st gear, with the handbrake on causes the car to stall as expected.
Changing gear is easy and smooth with no problems and all gears pull away quickly as expected.
If I am accelerating and release the accelerator pedal, the gear stick will "jump" forward - not out of gear, but noticeable "bump" forward indicating to me a movement in the engine as it rebounds from being under load. Is this normal?

Anyway, so those are the symptoms but what is the diagnosis?

I haven't had a chance to look under the car at the mount, so what should I be looking for when I do get under there, or do you think its the clutch that is at fault?

Thanks for the help, sorry for length!

[mjb]

Don't apologise for the length - the more details the better when describing a problem

How does the clutch feel to press and let out in neutral or with the engine off? If it jerks and sticks a bit I'd suggest getting a new cable+sheath on there as it's probably rusted inside. Lubrication will help for a short while, but will soon wear off.

If it's fine in neutral I'd wonder if either the clutch plate is contaminated, or an engine mount's gone. Get someone to try to run you over with the handbrake on while you look at the engine for signs of vibration or excessive movement.

[djheath]

Thanks for the reponse.

The clutch feels smooth through its full operation, but it is quite heavy. I was previously used to a very light hydraulic clutch on my old Seat Leon which was lovely on the old left foot. I seem to remember my old 405 was heavy on the cable clutch too so I think its pretty normal.

The cable looks pretty new, but quite dry so I plan to grease it up a bit anyway.
What contamination would there be? I assume the flywheel oil seal could have gone, but the engine hasn't lost any oil since I have bought it. It had a leaking thermostat housing just above the gear box, but don't know if this could have leaked in somehow.

I was going to try that method of pulling away with the handbrake on to see what could be moving. Is there any sure way to tell when a mount has gone?

Thanks again.

[mbell666]

Crankshaft oil seal is behind the flywheel so wouldn't cause oil contamination on the clutch. Mine leaked (ran out of bell housing) for well over 10k with out any contamination.

More likely if its oil contamination to be input shaft seal on the gearbox but I don't think its this.

[djheath]

Well, I have no oil underneath the car and I am not losing oil so I think I can rule out flywheel oil seal.

What puts me off clutch plate contamination is that there is no slipping, once the clutch is fully engaged. I would have throught it would slip if under load, say going up a hill, in most gears.

I was thinking maybe the flywheel is warped? Could this be a likely cause?

I think, I might change the engine mount anyway and hope that this solves the problem. If not, then its saving the pennies time to get another clutch fitted.

[mbell666]

if it is the engine mount it should be fairy easy to spot it by looking at it. think there may be some pics round here of it looks like and threads about how to change it.

[skylinemv]

If it was like mine drop the undershield and you can rock the engine front to back, the rubber had disintegrated in the mount.

Got a new one when the clutch was done, drives like a new car

[rapport25]

Have seen a few people saying they have left the mounts how much better is yours to drive with the mount and clutch?

[skylinemv]

The improvement is notice able and it saves busting the top mounts when your engine shakes itself to bits.

The take up is smooth and I am glad it was done.

[rapport25]

Yes i to will be changing my mount

[djheath]

EDIT: Can you see the pictures below? They dont seem to be hotlinking from my website. If you cant seem them then go to
http:\\www.djheath.net\pug and its the pics there. Thanks

Ok I have finally had a chance to have a gander at things.

I firstly had a look at the lowermount and couldn't see any problems with it:


I jacked the engine up a bit and could see it flexing but it didn't move a great deal and seems to do what I would expect.

I then looked at the top mounts and the gearbox one seemed ok from what I could see, but the drivers side seemed to have a crack in it:




Sorry for the crap pics I only had my phone on me. When I jacked up the engine, this mount moved a lot and the rubber seemed to stay still but the arm flexed around it on the crack.

Would the top mount cause these problems? Is it an easy fix?

[rapport25]

Mmmmmm interesting. I would take hunch and if there is play which you say there is cant be a good thing as engine is moving far more than normal. Well done for attaching picks i have to get my lower one sorted next w end

[teamster1975]

i have to get my lower one sorted next w end

Same here Rapport, the trouble is I've been saying that for months and still not done it!