Advice needed - Noise over 3000 rpm 2.2 HDi

[Frenzy406]

Hi there

I'm looking for some advice.

My 406 has a noise that occurs any time that i rev the engine above 3000rpm.

> It's more noticeable under load/acceleration, and goes quiet if i lift off the accelerator/balance the throttle (while still above 3000rpm).
> It feels as though the power is not really as much as it should be after 3000rpm while hearing the noise.
> It is a higher pitched tapping noise, that sounds a bit like a tappet noise, or maybe a little end or a piston slap kind of sound, but definitely not like the deeper big end or mains bearing kind of knock.
> It also sounds similar to Pre ignition pinking associated with over advancement of ignition timing in petrol engines. I have a feeling that it could just be a pinking kind of symptom associated with a fueling problem of some kind that i have seen suggested on other posts about noises.....but i'm not sure what part exactly would cause these symptoms?

My 406 has the 2.2 Hdi, and has done 68k. The sound has been there since i bought it at 65k.

>>>
Now, my beloved old 406 2.2 Hdi had the same noise and symptoms when I bought it at 132k.

When i asked my helpful 'Hdi knowledgeable MOT guy' to take it for a spin, and he returned with ideas of little end or piston slap, he just said "treat it with care, put it down to a hard life and perform a quality oil change". I subsequently changed to millers oil and changed filters etc. This did not help the noise.

The thing is, a FEW thousand miles after I preformed the oil change to millers, the noise just disappeared one day, never to be hard again !

The engine continued to sound lovely, until at 144k some twat (now known as the 'third party') pulled out in front of me and DesTroYeD my baby...

It seemed to me that too much time and mileage had been covered since the oil change, for the possibility that a noise emitted from mechanical wear could have been silenced by quality oil.....?

But if it had been a fueling problem, what could possibly cause this symptom that 1 day just disappeared?

>>>
So, assuming these same symptoms on my current 406 are being caused by the same problem, does anyone have any advice or pointers as to a possible cause?

Or have you experienced the same symptoms and had the problem fixed?

I don't want to simply wait to see if it disappears like my old car, even if if ever would?

Many thanks guys, looking forward to some feedback

[Doggy]

I can't think of anything common that fits the description - but a few guesses....

The HP pump has a 3rd cylinder de-activation solenoid, which I think is energised to reduce fuel pressure below about 3000 RPM, sticking maybe?
Faulty fuel rail pressure sensor?
Do you know if your swirl chamber actuator's working OK?
Do you know if the two throttle valves are changing over to direct the charge through the intercooler when it warms up?
Any error messages / EML on?
Have you still got the FAP etc fitted?
Are you running a standard ecu map?
Whereabouts are you located?

There's very few of us 2.2 owners about, it may be worth checking over on the coupe forum as there were lots more DW12's fitted to the coupe.

Vacuum system problems can cause many strange faults on our engines, there's a particulary useful post on it here: http://www.peugeot406coupe.com/phpBB3/v ... =2&t=35570

[Frenzy406]

Hey dogslife, thank you so much for the quick reply!
I think we're on different time zones lol

I shall try the 3rd cyl solenoid, and fuel rail pressure sensor, i have a couple of spare 1's from attempts to revive my old 2.0 Hdi 90...

I'm not familiar with the swirl chamber actuator, where is it and what does it look like ?

I'm not sure how to check correct operation of the throttle valves, but it's quite similar when hot or cold, maybe a little more noticeable when warm.....?

No error messages or EML, well except for the occasional "Anti Pollution Fault" at start up after i removed the FAP and Cat a couple of weeks ago

Standard ECU Map as far as i know, it drives quite normal. i.e. it needs Mapping as soon as I sort out this noise LOL

Located in Wrexham...

Yes I waited 8 months to find a replacement 2.2 at the right price !

Thanks, I'll check out on the coupe forum.

Another small question, after turning off the engine, i can hear a small buzzing noise for a while, could this be a kind of turbo lubrication timer?

Thanks again

[Doggy]

I'm not familiar with the swirl chamber actuator, where is it and what does it look like ?

It's a vacuum operated device that alters the intake airflow dependeant on engine speed / load.
If you look at the gearbox end of the cyl head, you should see the pictured mechanism. If you open the throttle, you should see the actuator move....

I'm not sure how to check correct operation of the throttle valves, but it's quite similar when hot or cold, maybe a little more noticeable when warm.....?

When the engine's warm, one butterfly opens to direct air through the intercooler. When it's cold this one is closed & the other open, directing air through the water-heated exchanger, attached to the rear of the radiator.

No error messages or EML, well except for the occasional "Anti Pollution Fault" at start up after i removed the FAP and Cat a couple of weeks ago

Standard ECU Map as far as i know, it drives quite normal. i.e. it needs Mapping as soon as I sort out this noise LOL

If you've removed the FAP and not changed the ecu map to suit, you can expect some problems. Mine worked OK for a month or two, then went into permanent limp mode. Only resolved when I installed a 'no=FAP' ecu map. I can help you remove the FAP code from your existing map, or possibly send you a defapped file - maybe a remapped one if your car is compatible. Let me know if you're interested.

Another small question, after turning off the engine, i can hear a small buzzing noise for a while, could this be a kind of turbo lubrication timer?

Mine does this too, TBH I've no idea what it is, but it's always done it.

[steve_earwig]

It's either vacuum or fuel pressure dissipating - all HDis seem to do it.

[Doggy]

It's either vacuum or fuel pressure dissipating - all HDis seem to do it.

Makes sense - the Xsara didn't make the same noise, so I'm guessing it didn't have a vacuum reservoir.

[Frenzy406]

Hi guys thanks for all the helpful advice:) I'll have a check as soon as i can
Swirl valve actuator is operating ok

Yes ur right i've not changed the ecu map to suit so i could probably do with a no Fap file quite urgently, a remapped 1 would be wonderful as that is the way i hope to go apart from the obvious affording it lol

What do i need to check for you to see if that would be compatible?

Also when would be convenient for you to help me with it? i don't know how to do it myself.....i did purchase PP2000 and cables from eBay (china) last year but had a nightmare trying to get it to run on my mac, then found out that also the disc was corrupt and they wouldn't send me another copy from china

where in the country are you ?

Many thanks again

[Doggy]

Yes ur right i've not changed the ecu map to suit so i could probably do with a no Fap file quite urgently, a remapped 1 would be wonderful as that is the way i hope to go apart from the obvious affording it lol

What do i need to check for you to see if that would be compatible?

What age is your car - if it's a 2002 on fully multiplexed, then no problem, de-fapped 136 & 180 bhp files almost certainly available foc. If it's a 2001, it can definetly be de-fapped, but you might not be able to get a freebie remap.

Also when would be convenient for you to help me with it? i don't know how to do it myself.....i did purchase PP2000 and cables from eBay (china) last year but had a nightmare trying to get it to run on my mac, then found out that also the disc was corrupt and they wouldn't send me another copy from china :

where in the country are you ?

I don't mind helping you with it, but bear in mind it's a fair jaunt from yours to mine, (I'm at NN17). You could make the journey & go away without gaining anything - none of this is gauranteed.

If you get a Galletto 1260, (about £25 max from Ebay etc.), you can read / download ecu files yourself - I can point you in the direction of the files you want.

Alternatively, I think there are members of the coupe club much nearer your location, who would almost certainly help, if asked.

I know nothing about macs, but someone recently got PP2000 running on one....

Also, if you get someone, (including me) to reprogram your car, they will almost certainly have a working copy of the PP2000 disc you could make a 'security backup' of and could also test your lexia hardware and make sure it works.

[Frenzy406]

Hi there again

My car is 2003 '03 reg 2.2 Hdi GLX Estate , now 7 seater

Wow that is very kind thankyou !:)

What is fully multiplexed and how do i find out if mine is ?

Ah yes i see AA route planner says ur 141 miles away lol, worth the ride if it works tho lol...
I'm not sure if the set i bought was galletto or the other 1??? think there were a couple of different things on ebay at the time, i payed £120 plus extra fees for my stuff that doesn't work

Does the galletto need a computer/laptop/windows to read/download the files or is it standalone?
yes that would be great if you or someone else would be able to help me get up and running with my hardware/PP2000

Could you put me in touch with someone closer to me ?

I don't like being cheeky but mind contributing towards pocket money for help and backups

Thanks again

[Doggy]

Your car is the later model, fully multiplexed design with the newer stlye column stalk unit (Com2000).
The bad news is this gubbins is very expensive if it fails.
The good news is your car should run the same, (180 bhp), ecu map as mine.

By the sound of things, you've got a PP2000 - which is a dealer diagnostic clone. If working correctly, it will let you read / clear fault codes from any of the cars many ecu's, configure new equipment, add or delete some options, (like cruise control etc). Mine cost me £155 a couple of years back, cheapest I've seen lately is about £110. It won't let you change ecu files.

For that you need a EOBD flash programmer, (I use a Galletto 1260, but others have used a KWP2000), these are much cheaper, typically £25 or less. Galletto does need a laptop to run. Both interfaces will work with a very slow, basic Windows pc - I use my daughter's 5-year old cast off Dell running XP Home. Others have managed to get this stuff working on macs, but I've no idea how.

I'll PM you some suggestions on who else you could contact.

[Frenzy406]

Hey dogs life,

Thanks again for all the very helpful advice and education !
It's all making sense now
I'll see how i get on

[Frenzy406]

Thanks again guys,

Bit of an update.....

Noise still there...
I just had the 180 no Fap remap on saturday, thank you so much for the contact

Thought I'd try some injector cleaner in a tank of fuel, and gave it a blast to anglesey, around th island, and back twice (in 81 mins Lol) ..... 800 miles later and the noise is just the same as before, but the remap is exciting, altho yes i now do have some soot on my rear bumper, but then i have removed the Fap and the Cat.....

Drives great apart from the noise, it's just a little worrying if it's a mechanical noise from something being starved of oil pressure for some reason.....?

Then today I ran some winns engine flush, dropped the oil, and filled with Mobil 1. Stillll nooo channnnge.....

But on the other hand it does sound similar to pinking, but above the 3000? hmmm .....

Incidentally, when i was checking the operation of the 3rd piston de-activation solenoid, i had it plugged in, but took it out of the pump in to open air, so i could watch the pin move. I fitted a spare 1 to the pump to block the fuel from spurting out. when i revved the engine, the noise was still there, at same revs, and even drove up the street just as normal, even though the solenoid that was actually screwed in the pump was not connected, or being de/activated. strange that it drives the same without functioning? The 1 in open air that was connected operated it's pin at about the 3000 rev mark.

so, the 3000 point seems a bit of a co-incedence, but neither the noise, nor the engine operation seem to be affected whether the 1 in fitted 2 the pump is plugged in and operational or not... so i was thinking... could the 3rd piston it's self on the pump be sticking? ... at this mileage? ... can they even stick?