Planning on getting a new 406 - interesting info

[=|[PsychoPoet406]|=]

Had a rather interesting chat this morning with Andy who owns HiFlow Heads. I told him I'm thinking of getting a 406 V6 and he remarked on how impressive the car and engine combination is, stating that the engine is "bombproof" and comes with forged pistons as standard (perhaps due to lessons learned with the 2.0 turbo).

Please bear in mind that the rest of this post talks about the 194bhp 3.0V6 without VVT (the VVT engine is apparently a nightmare to tune).

I asked him how much, in theory, would need to be spent to turn the car into an Impreza rival. His reply: "There's not much in it when the 406 is standard." He believes the Impreza's better launch capability (4WD) is matched by the 406's excellent mid to high range acceleration, so on a drag run there wouldn't be a great deal of difference between the two.

We then started talking about engine mods. Most of my friends from PGTi are running throttle bodied Clios and 106s which can do 14.5 second quarter miles. They're also stripped out, roll caged, have lightened flywheels, shorter gearing ratios etc.

I asked about turning a 406 into a match for those cars. He told me that for £3,600 - about the price my mates have spent on their engines - he would supercharge the engine and fit low-compression forged pistons, good for 280-300bhp, 280-300lb/ft and a 0-60 time to rival the average supercar.

We talked about throttle bodies. He said he'd build me a custom set using parts from motorbike engines for £2,600 and I'd be looking at an enormous increase in torque and the car would sound like a TVR.

He expressly recommended that I fit 16" wheels with excellent quality, low-profile tyres. He said that any bigger and the car's handling balance would be reduced. (The other advantage is that excellent 16s are always cheaper than average 17s!)

It's all very expensive, but then again you get what you pay for, and I always feel inadequate whenever my mates announce their new gearbox or LSD or turbo or whatever! I am tired of being in other peoples' shadow, and I think maybe next year will be the time to do it!

What do people think?

[TheSongRemainsTheSame]

I'll steal it when it's done!

If you have the money - go for it! But wouldnt the front wheel drive of the 406 reduce the power a bit? I've heard that 230horses + is pretty much wasted on a fwd car?

[Foxy]

So Andy at Hi flow heads reckons a standard 406 V6 is a match for a Impreza turbo? Is he nuts? Im no genius but 190bhp and 1350 kilos (406) and 279bhp and approx 1200 kilos (scooby)......... Theres no competition.
Ive thought long and hard and Im sticking with the turbo. Going to throw a few quid at it (C20LET pistons and Rover T16 injectors) Then a hybrid T28 to bring it to around 250bhp. Then I may 16v it with the 306 S16 head I bought from ebay for £21.

Heres a few facts about the good old scooby do

GC8C (1995)

In November 1994, the WRX has a power increase to 260ps(191kW) @ 6500rpm with 31.5kg*m(309N*m) @ 5000rpm. The wheel diameters are increased to 16 inches. The brake rotors are both ventilated disks. The vehicle now has a curb weight of 1230kg. The WRX Type RA has the same mechanical upgrades and power rating, but only has a curb weight of 1180kg.
[edit]

GC8D (1996)

The 1996MY WRX debuts on January 1996. The WRX receives very little mechanical changes. A WRX V-Limited Edition is introduced to celebrate the success of the Impreza WRC car in the FIA WRC. It is mechanically the same to the WRX but weighs 1240kg. The V-limited cars are painted in World Rally Blue.
[edit]

GC8E (1997/1998)

September 1996 brings an updated styling to the WRX. The 1997MY WRX has a power rating of 280ps(206kW) @ 6500rpm with 33.5kg*m(329N*m) @ 4000rpm. The car now weighs 1250kg. The WRX Type RA weighs 1190kg.
[edit]

GC8F (1999)

The 1999MY WRX is introduced on September 1998. The power rating stays the same as the previous year's model, but the torque is increased to 34.5kg*m(338N*m) @ 4000rpm due to the improvement of the engine design (the engine was dubbed as Boxer Phase II engine). The car now has a curb weight of 1270kg. The WRX Type RA gets the same power upgrades and has a weight increase of 20kg to 1210kg.
[edit]

GC8G (2000)

The last version of the WRX is introduced on September 1999. There is no change in the mechanical specifications. The 2000MY WRX Has improvements such as color coated door handles and side mirrors. The WRX also comes with new 16" x 7" wheel designs.

[=|[PsychoPoet406]|=]

Actually, I reckon he wasn't that far wide of the mark: in Endeavour, my black car, I virtually held off an Impreza through fourth and fifth gears, though I did get left behind and I don't know which type of Scooby it was. My 406 then had 215bhp at the fly and around 230lb/ft, and was running on perfect condtition 15" Eagle F1s.

On the other hand, I once raced my mate's WRX STi from the lights and got totally destroyed.

I reckon if I did go for the charger, pistons and remap package, things would be a bit different.

EDIT: I heard that the 406's weight would actually work in its favour, keeping thr front wheels on the ground for extra traction, and if I fitted wide wheels (rather than tall wheels) on sports tyres, this would also help.

[Foxy]

What mods did your 406 have?

I thought it was 180bhp as said the hand written rolling road ticket you posted a while back.

Im not expecting 215bhp from mine when its back with the mods and Im confident mine would never ever keep up with a scooby in any form. Ive driven a scoob, I know the cars and the brute power of the things.

Even if your 406 had 215bhp like you say, its still a long way short of impreza power and over 100 kilos heavier. Doesnt take a mathematician to work out the outcome of any trial.

[=|[PsychoPoet406]|=]

I thought it was 180bhp as said the hand written rolling road ticket you posted a while back.

It said 185bhp, and that was at the wheels. The flywheel figure was 215bhp. It was rolling roaded at JP Autotechnics, and you can ring John who owns it if you want to confirm the figures.

[Foxy]

So what had you done to it?

Mines going to be running 1.1 bar of boost with a 205 GTi camshaft, cosworth intercooler and -31 actuator as well as a polished and ported head. If it gets over 200bhp Ill be more than happy but I think its unlikely. It'll need a remap to take it any further.

I take it you mean this car http://www.cardomain.com/ride/752807

215 bhp from just a bleed valve Not much transmission loss there either... What was the torque figure?

[=|[PsychoPoet406]|=]

Yes, bleed valve, induction kit and custom exhaust, not too shabby considering the job lot cost me £500, and it was losing 20bhp LESS through the transmission than an Impreza 2.0 turbo as John from JP Autotechnics pointed out -- why do you think he remembered me when I hadn't been to his garage for two years?

EDIT:

If I remember rightly, the bleeder valve got me 22bhp. On its own.

[Foxy]

So you got 65bhp extra from a bleed valve, exhaust and filter?

In theory then mine should be near 250bhp when I get it back.


FWD cars usually suffer from about 20% transmission loss iirc. I remember my Gti6 having 168bhp and 134bhp at the wheels and my XSi having 135bhp and 106bhp at the wheels.
4WD drive cars suffer more - 25-30%

[Malachy]

OMG i laughed my nuts off at this
sorry poet i know its not your fault but this hiflow guy is just taking you for a ride.

stating that the engine is "bombproof" and comes with forged pistons as standard (perhaps due to lessons learned with the 2.0 turbo).

thats lie number 1 the compression ratio of the v6 does not need forgies, VERY few production cars run them from standard as the larger bore tolerance means that engines with forgies run like complete crap from cold.
and lessons learned with the 2l turbo????????? i know of at least 30-40+ people using this engine across various forums NOT 1 Has had piston failure hell it shares the same flat top pistons as used in the production t16 engine.
Another ecosse/hiflow bag of bull to make you spend more money.

I asked him how much, in theory, would need to be spent to turn the car into an Impreza rival. His reply: "There's not much in it when the 406 is standard." He believes the Impreza's better launch capability (4WD) is matched by the 406's excellent mid to high range acceleration, so on a drag run there wouldn't be a great deal of difference between the two.

ok he is kinda right but on the strip, even a stock uk turbo2000 will rip the 406 a new one due to the fact it can launch to 60mph in 5.x seconds, the 406 will never be able to gain that back. However in a 40-70 in gear i expect things will be closer. I still would not want to bet against the impreza though, and i hate impreza's:P

We then started talking about engine mods. Most of my friends from PGTi are running throttle bodied Clios and 106s which can do 14.5 second quarter miles. They're also stripped out, roll caged, have lightened flywheels, shorter gearing ratios etc.

omg 14.5 sec quarters from pretty much race spec clios and 106 biscuit tins, id take my car back to whatever "tuner" done that since i know you can make a 205 do a 13.5 just by slapping the 406 turbo engine in.

I asked about turning a 406 into a match for those cars. He told me that for £3,600 - about the price my mates have spent on their engines - he would supercharge the engine and fit low-compression forged pistons, good for 280-300bhp, 280-300lb/ft and a 0-60 time to rival the average supercar.

ok 300bhp and 300lbft 0-60 time to match an avarage super car. wtf is an "average" supercar. For starters he hasnt mentiond an lsd, 250+bhp without an lsd in a fwd will just go up in smoke you wont get the traction down the price is not to bad for the conversion if tht includes the ecu etc etc i would guess with an lsd you will have a 0-60 in the region of 5.5/6 secs, even with an lsd you cant beat 4wd traction and defy physics, if i bought a supercar with that performance it would be going back to the dealers!

We talked about throttle bodies. He said he'd build me a custom set using parts from motorbike engines for £2,600 and I'd be looking at an enormous increase in torque and the car would sound like a TVR.

hahahahahahhaha a v6 psa engine sounding a like a tuned buick/rover v8? just by slapping on some tb's he most be tone deaf.
as for torque increase it wont be enormous tbs are only really benificial when used with a wild as hell cam setup.
and as for the price, i bet he fkn can build a set of bike tbs for that. i could build a set of bike tb's for <£500 add in the ecu etc and your away.

He expressly recommended that I fit 16" wheels with excellent quality, low-profile tyres. He said that any bigger and the car's handling balance would be reduced. (The other advantage is that excellent 16s are always cheaper than average 17s!)

wow he said something i agree with, although he also is wrong. 16" tyres are generally more expensive than 17"s. 17"s are more popular and get produced more this cuts the cost, 16" is a rare size and shows in the cost.

What do people think?

i think i wouldnt let him polish my car let alone work on the engine.

[Malachy]

4WD drive cars suffer more - 25-30%

impreza's have huge transmission losses this is why in a rolling start i think the 406 will keep up.
a friend of mine has a 2l n/a 130bhp impreza sport its in top condition nothing wrong with it at all
this rolling roaded at 80bhp atw and 130bhp as it should at the fly.

same 4wd system as wrx's and nothing is wrong with this car.

you get less losses with systems like the VW haldex as thats fwd 90% of the time unless a front wheel slips then ist shifts power to rear wheels

[Welly]

37% losses

Pah.......I'd have a 200sx any day

These Flywheel figures are normally banded about by willy wavers down the Pub IMO.

[Malachy]

37% losses

Pah.......I'd have a 200sx any day

These Flywheel figures are normally banded about by willy wavers down the Pub IMO.

yep on an average permanant 4wd system your looking at 35-40% loss
front engined rwd is about 25-30%
rear engine rwd and front engined front wheel drive is about 20-25%

one of the best mods you can do to a impreza is not turning the boost up etc etc, its just getting a carbon prop shaft, you gain so much more

[Welly]

one of the best mods you can do to a impreza is not turning the boost up etc etc, its just getting a carbon prop shaft, you gain so much more

I think one of the best mods you can do to an Imprezza involves a match and a can of unleaded

[=|[PsychoPoet406]|=]

So you got 65bhp extra from a bleed valve, exhaust and filter?

I'm not saying it sounds believable, I'm stating the figures my car had when he'd done the work. He said it was putting down just over 160bhp at the road wheels in perfectly standard form. I therefore gained 25bhp at the road wheels through bleeder valve, exhaust and induction kit, which is about what I'd expect. I did not gain 65bhp at the road wheel.

I didn't get a standard flywheel figure.

sorry poet i know its not your fault but this hiflow guy is just taking you for a ride.

That is not an uncommon thing to happen I must have got "walk on me" printed on my forehead.

stating that the engine is "bombproof" and comes with forged pistons as standard

Aargh, that was me saying it wrong. He said it came with pistons that were effectively the same as forgies (as in, the are as strong as forgied pistons) and there was no need under normal circumstances to uprate them.

Out of interest, what is the compression ratio of the V6 pistons? If it's in the region of 8:1, surely that means you could run a high level of boost without needing to strengthen the pistons, so I could just bolt a charger on and not blow my engine up?

and lessons learned with the 2l turbo????????? i know of at least 30-40+ people using this engine across various forums NOT 1 Has had piston failure hell it shares the same flat top pistons as used in the production t16 engine.

Another ecosse/hiflow bag of bull to make you spend more money.

I know a lot of Xantia Activa owners who are safely running 14psi boost. Every engine tuner I speak to warns me about the pistons, but they're usually quite vague, and none of them tell exactly the same story.

on the strip, even a stock uk turbo2000 will rip the 406 a new one due to the fact it can launch to 60mph in 5.x seconds, the 406 will never be able to gain that back. However in a 40-70 in gear i expect things will be closer. I still would not want to bet against the impreza though, and i hate impreza's

I understand. I remember battles in my black 406, but even friends with extremely tuned cars said the 406 was hard to pass in high gear. And my car weighed 1355kgs, theirs weighed about 900.

omg 14.5 sec quarters from pretty much race spec clios and 106 biscuit tins, id take my car back to whatever "tuner" done that since i know you can make a 205 do a 13.5 just by slapping the 406 turbo engine in.

But can they though, otherwise everyone would be doing it. It's not easy to get a FWD car into the 14s without big spending. I don't want to think about trying to get a 406 turbo into the 14s. (But it could be done.)

To clarify another point, "average" is like the Jap cars of the 90s, you know the NSX, Supra, GTO, which did 0-60 in around 5.5 seconds and had about 280bhp. I didn't mean the cars themselves were average. I love the 406, but I'd sell it in a second if I got a chance at an NSX. It's your Ferraris and M5s that go faster than that.

The comment about 16" wheel costing was mine, not the tuner's.

While this is really interesting, it still leaves me wondering where to take my car and what to do with it. You know, once I get it.