Info on Adding Turbo to 406 ST 2.0 16v XU10J4R Petrol

niz406 · Post by **niz406** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:05 am

Malachy wrote:i also forgot to say since i hope to be going over 200bhp it is likely that i will need to upgrade injectors, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator too

There are three methods to increase fuel flow:

1) lengthening injector pulse duration
2) increase nozzle size ( larger Injectors )
3) increase fuel pressure

Firstly you will not need to increase your injector size for over 200bhp, your current injectors on a mega-squirt system will be good for around the upper tier of 200bhp... on the lower tier of 200bhp an FSE PBV will produce a sufficient rise in your rails pressure.

Above that you will need to adjust the injector pulse duration for the mid range-high rev band, this function is provided by your MegaSquirt ECU. and should remove the need and cost to upgrade the injectors.

if you wanted a cost effective method simply implement a 5th std injector on your megasquirt as it should have the facilities for this.

Malachy wrote:also the cam will need upgrading since the XU10J2te is known to have a lazier cam than a mexican janitor so will definatly restrict power later on

I wouldn't personally bother with the cam on a T25, the fact is that by the time the cam starts to take effect ( Mid -high range ) the turbo would have almost made maximum boost, the benefits of the cam would come later when the engine is running on its own steam.

Remember that with forced induction (turbocharging) we do not need to have the valves open for longer than normal, we simply increase the boost level that will force the required air in..

If your going to upgrade to a T28 then by all means a cam would be a great addition for the higher revs where the T28 goes that little bit further up the rev range.

to be honest I've never seen anyone with a supercharged 406, maybe that could be a project for you ??

Malachy · Post by **Malachy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:18 am

actually thinking of it back to the originalk post supercharge your 406

eaton supercharger from a mini = less than ?200
get some brackets fabricated to mount it and a bit of pipework, off ya go, supercharged 2l16v instant power on tap due to no turbo spool up should be able to run about 6psi on stock internals without much need for a different ecu setup, maybe just a remap.

Malachy · Post by **Malachy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:20 am

as for dropping in a c20let, its a hell of alot of fabricating and modding to work, an xu10j2te bolts straight in driveshafts match up no need to get custom ones made engine mounts are fine and i do not need to do too much wiring. doint the c20let conversion is too big a job for me tbh

k3nny · Post by **k3nny** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:41 pm

Uhmm ..... supercharger. this is getting more interesting.

if what malachy said is true, (supercharger cost around ?200) i guess that's an even better idea.

what's the main difference between supercharge and turbocharge? other than supercharge works even on low rpm while turbo start kicking at higher rpm.

do you think my engine characteristics can accept a supercharge application?

hehehe, this is getting better and better. i can't wait to start the engine upgrades. tommorow i'll start hunting for 18" - 19" wheels and accessories.

Malachy · Post by **Malachy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:53 pm

a supercharger is run by a belt from your crank, so the charger is always spinning at a great rate forcing air into the engine. A turbo charger is driven by exhaust gasses exiting the engine this takes a while to spin up and is known as "turbo lag" superchargers dont have this. although they do whine a little all the time, some people love this some people hate it. And the eaton supercharger is what is used on 'Minis' it is available very cheaply since a lot of mini owners get it uprated from new to the works spec this includes a new supercharger. so there are a few of them about

a supercharger does however 'drain' about 25% of the engines power just to run since it is being run from the crank (similar to how powersteering+ac drain engine power but much more severe) but due to the increase it will give this will be over ridden. You will have a VERY noticable increase in power but it will not be as much as running the same amount of boost on a turbo due to this loss.
Supercharger power will be instant, put your foot down you will get power, however turbo you will get a slight delay (delay will be more with bigger turbos and more boost)

the biggest problem with supercharging is you need to get VERY good mounts and it needs to be very sturdy or it will throw the belt off and stop all air going into the engine, it will need to be alligned perfectly to stop this too, you will need to get a second pulley attached to your crank to run the supercharger from. It is also harder to increase/decrease boost on a supercharger the way you do this is by Changing the size of the pulleys so it will spin faster or slower with revs.
but imo a supercharger will suit your needs

something like this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-cooper-s-sup ... dZViewItem

and here is another

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMW-Mini-Cooper-S ... dZViewItem

niz406 · Post by **niz406** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:48 pm

Malachy wrote:a supercharger is run by a belt from your crank, so the charger is always spinning at a great rate forcing air into the engine. A turbo charger is driven by exhaust gasses exiting the engine this takes a while to spin up and is known as "turbo lag" superchargers dont have this.

What your talking about above is actually Spool time where a turbo is concerned

Turbo Lag is the time the turbo takes to re-spool once maximum boost has been achieved and the throtte closed whilst changing gear, its is the time prior to the surge of power you should get when the turbo spools again....

A heavy surge that throws you in your seat at about 3000rpm or above is a sign of bad lag, a turbochargers power delivery should be smooth, just like it is when you turn the boost back to factory levels on the 406, a crisp and smooth response! !

The main difference I think you should be made aware of is that, on a turbocharged car, the power is a result of a waste product i.e. exhaust gas pressure... where as on a supercharged car the power is directly associated to the crank and therefore extra load is put on this object prior to any gain in performance, typically a drain of 25 - 30% as Malachy stated.

A supercharger would be great, as there are no influences from back pressure, as there is with the turbo.... but then again, the supercharger will reach maximum boost far quicker than the turbo and as you only want a gain in low end of the rev range its implementation will be a bit overkill..

it will cost you a hell of a lot less cash than a turbo conversion as it will be easier to install with no modification needed to the exhaust plumbing etc. its a tough choice and all we can offer is some advice but it really does come down to your personal preference.....

for your information: The eaton Supercharger on the Mini cooper S only delivers 170bhp...

k3nny · Post by **k3nny** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:39 pm

A supercharger would be great, as there are no influences from back pressure, as there is with the turbo.... but then again, the supercharger will reach maximum boost far quicker than the turbo and as you only want a gain in low end of the rev range its implementation will be a bit overkill..

it will cost you a hell of a lot less cash than a turbo conversion as it will be easier to install with no modification needed to the exhaust plumbing etc. its a tough choice and all we can offer is some advice but it really does come down to your personal preference.....

for your information: The eaton Supercharger on the Mini cooper S only delivers 170bhp...

uhmm, base on my knowledge Supercharger is recommended for better throttle response. other consideration is it produces less heat rather than turbo. and finally budgetwise.

ok, one thing i don't really understand is fitting the supercharge onto the 406 engine. does a supercharger can be fitted to almost any car just like a turbo? coz, from the picture i saw on ebay malachy showed me. i don't know wheter it's universal fitting or not?

i watched a friend fitting his turbo kit by himself so i know how it's done. but i never saw supercharger.

i can see, the black one is the pulley for the belt. what's the hollow bottom part for and where do i 'sit' it? where the rear end pipe goes to?

talk to me like i'm a newbie on supercharger. really ! hehehe.

k3nny · Post by **k3nny** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:50 pm

honestly,

from these replies, i'm getting an impression that turbo isn't the best solution to bring a low end rev response.

a twin turbo engine usually works by compensating a low end rev using a single small turbo (t25 maybe) and a high rev using bigger turbo.

can i just get the characteristics that i want (low end rev) by using small turbo?

or simply my brain is just too dumb to see that turbo is not the solution and supercharger might be considerable?

let's wrap up this topic by comin' on a conclusion.

niz406 · Post by **niz406** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:59 pm

OMG YOU killed K3nny....... you bas#a@rds (Kyle - southpark styliee)

Honestly I would recommend.... a turbo ! ! but thats just because I own one and I know how much fun you will have with it...

A twin turbo application is typically used for V configuration engines, V6 - V8 - V12.. what you are talking about in your description is Sequential turbo's, the smaller turbo looks after the lower revs and helps to spool the larger turbo up quicker for the remaining rev band.

Cars that use this type of implementation include: Skyline, RX7, etc.

Yes its a Twin Turbo but it works in a different method, the method above relates to sequential turbo configuartion...

Imagine having a V6 406 engine and wanting to turbo charge it, well you have 2 x the energy available to run the turbo's, by that I mean two exhaust manifolds.

Sure you can use a single Turbo for a V block, but then its not as refined as it could be and lag starts to play a part in the system due to the length of pipe required by one of the V banks to power the turbo.

So what do you do I hear you say, you run 2 T25's one on each bank and you set them to both produce the same boost, so 2 x 7 p.s.i = 1 bar give or take a few 0.1's in this arrangement you could keep the extra heat down by passing low boost through both blowers, crazy power would come when you start pushing 10+ p.s.i and above from each blower.

blower = turbo

A small turbo would be great news, a T2 or a T25 small and therefore quicker to respond when the throttle is applied... yes turbo's generate heat, but so do superchargers, think about it, you are forcing more air into the cylinder so when the ignition fires and there is combustion you are burning hotter and faster than normal due to the density / oxygen content in the charge provided by either device...

Ther difference comes from the heat of the device, its true that a turbo will generate the most heat, because it is using the exhaust gasses as its power source, however the turbo does not take power away before replacing it, its a form of energy recycler, where the supercharger is an energy drainer before its a performance device

This is my opinion anyway, others may argue it... but the fact is that its true, out of the box, the turbo wins my bid... set up properly and installed correctly, its fair game between the two!

It all depends on your personal preference as to what you want to achieve from your system.

Malachy · Post by **Malachy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:02 pm

The part underneeth bolts onto your throttle body you would need to get an adaptor made up to fit this , a small turbo would do the job too, however i think a supercharger will be more cost effective.
you will need:
supercharger
belt
pully for crank
mounts made for charger
air filter solution to suit charger
intercooler possibly but not essential
adaptor to get supercharger outlet to throttlebody inlet.
and i would also reccomend a remap just to keep things running nice.

k3nny · Post by **k3nny** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:09 pm

Malachy wrote:The part underneeth bolts onto your throttle body you would need to get an adaptor made up to fit this , a small turbo would do the job too, however i think a supercharger will be more cost effective.
you will need:
supercharger
belt
pully for crank
mounts made for charger
air filter solution to suit charger
intercooler possibly but not essential
adaptor to get supercharger outlet to throttlebody inlet.
and i would also reccomend a remap just to keep things running nice.

Been doing more 'hunting' and less forum these past 2 days, and turned out malachy's advice is the best based on 2 best workshop in this area.

but then i'm facing a dilemma, because the guys at workshop told me it's true that supercharger is most cost efficient but then they also mentioned that they can fit a small turbo kit onto my engine without replacing factory parts. simply use a small boost and get a double electric blower to keep my engine cool or an intercooler. off course re-setting the ECU is also required.

damn, so hard to make up my mind. anyway. i should start the project and wrap up this topic. ^^

thanks for your advices. will upload several pictures when finished with modifications.

niz406 · Post by **niz406** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:12 pm

A Turbocharger system on std parts will not require adjustments to the ECU, WHEN RUNNING a low boost application 5p.s.i max! All you will need to to is raise the fuel rail pressure with a Rising Rate Regulator, such as an FSE BPV.

Get a boost gauge and an A/F ratio gauge and you can monitor your mixture and boost levels during operation and adjust fuel / boost where required. By all means get an Intercooler otherwise you may have problems with detonation and a twin fan pack for the cooler/ rad will help alot.

YOu want to make sure that they use a water cooled turbo ( Water cooled Bearing journal ) some smaller turbo's do not use this and they have only oil feed/return!

Go for the turbo ! you know you want to ! !

MaDc0w · Post by **MaDc0w** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:21 pm

Well I have read this thread like 20x and i'm still lost..

Can't I just "slap a turbo" in a 16v without all the other engine mods? (polishing/porting ect)

Then all i'd need is a custom manifold right? turbo and cooler off ebay, and 2 handmade pipes and done or?

I could order the manifold from HiFlow or?

I want to keep it simple so I could "slap the turbo" into another 16v 406 engine when this one someday dies.

Am I totally lost? Sorry to bring this old topic back up again but I still feel lost. Wish that some garage here would just do it for me

Malachy · Post by **Malachy** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:29 pm

MaDc0w wrote:Well I have read this thread like 20x and i'm still lost..

Can't I just "slap a turbo" in a 16v without all the other engine mods? (polishing/porting ect)

Then all i'd need is a custom manifold right? turbo and cooler off ebay, and 2 handmade pipes and done or?

I could order the manifold from HiFlow or?

I want to keep it simple so I could "slap the turbo" into another 16v 406 engine when this one someday dies.

Am I totally lost? Sorry to bring this old topic back up again but I still feel lost. Wish that some garage here would just do it for me

you can "just slap a turbo on" but it wont be reliable you will need to strenthen the engine and drop the compression ratio to retain any form of reliability

MaDc0w · Post by **MaDc0w** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:46 pm

How do these kits for opel ect work then? I was reading random posts from different forums on turbo kits and most of them didn't do any other engine mods.

Are those engines just better than french motors? Or do these guys just have bad performing engines after they install such a kit?