Water in my 1996 406 pls help!

[406owner2]

Steve i made a mistake, as i understand it i needed to test Pin 2 on the relay connector from the car, that is what i did now,
i tested pin 2 on the car relay plug without the relay and it gave 12.12v (when earthed to the radiator bolt and engine block)

testing pin 10 on the relay plug without relay does not give a voltage.

[406owner2]

7 pounds is excellent, I don't think a spark plug for my lawnmower is that cheap

Pin 10 is the "switch on" from the ecu the relay should close now.

I've been squinting away at your pictures for a while now and I think I've figured out how they're connected:

I think you've been testing on the feed from pin 10 so I'm not sure why you got no voltage there (maybe this is the problem) I have no idea what the other terminal is as it's connected through from the other side of the pcb.

Pin 11, the supply from fuse 1, is connected through to the three points I have marked with a "+" and pins 1 & 9 (for the pump and ignition coils) connect through to the pin marked with a "p". When the relay is switched on the + should be joined through to the p.

You could try testing these points but it's beginning to look like the relay is dead

Ok so if i understand this right:

let me just say i have put a 12v supply on the relay pins 2 and 10,
and also directly put the voltage as you have just indicated on your drawings on nrs 2 and 10 of the solder joints, the relay worked when i did that.

So from what i understand from your reply is if i try and resolder P 9 and 1
it "might" let the current through which is coming from markings/pins 2 and 10 that you made on the picture,

Again adding 12 volts to 2 and 10 made the relay work.

[406owner2]

Ok here's another thing:

Pin 10 is negative so should not give anything ok.

So when i put 12v on pin 2 and negative on pin 10 on the relay it worked.

But when plugged into the relay plug at the car and pin 2 gets 12V from that relay plug the relay does not work.

Before i go down, i'll just add this to think about ?

Could it be something to do with the first relay that is always working upon ignition where as when i tested the relay separately out of the plug, the first relay is not switched on by the plug in the car so somehow when the first relay is switched on by the car relay plug it interferes with the not working relay ?

[406owner2]

Updated my last post pls read again.

[406owner2]

Possible ?

In the picture below, you can't really see, but when i looked closely, pin 10 which is negative is pushed back slightly into it's seating compared to the rest that ois all forward, might this be the cause ? perhaps it pushes down deeper once the actual relay goes onto it ?

Perhaps i should try dissemble the plug and try and push it up firmly to see if i could fix it and if it solves the issue ?

[steve_earwig]

Ah, of course: if the ignition feed is 12 volts then the signal from the ecu must be an earth

Trouble is, even though it's not getting the signal from the ecu, it still didn't run the pump even though you physically closed the relay with your stick.

The two relays are fed from the same supply but inside the box they are completely separate. The only way the working relay affects the non-working one is because it powers the ecu, which in turn switches the non-working relay.

I just saw your next post: I think it should still be ok but you could try pushing it so it's the same as the others.

[406owner2]

Yes it did not make a difference you were right pushed pin ten of the plug wire as hard as i could on the relay, no difference.

However in response exactly relevant to your last post, a slight twist in the plot:

Something to note:
While we were doing all these tests, i forgot to put back the plug on the fuel pump at the back, i reconnected it now, and i tried to manually push in the "faulty" relay and it sounded like the pump came to life.

I had the pipes below the fuel tank disconnected from the silver fuel filter, but as the pump was making it's noise, nothing came out of those lines, is it suppose to push out the fuel/water, or are they only suppose to pump out fuel when the car cranks ? or starts ?

Also would the tests we did so far differ if the pump plug was disconnected ?

[steve_earwig]

Ah, that's a nit of a break through really: Know we know the relay isn't switching the pump on for some reason. What we need to know now is: is the earth getting there from the ecu? This will be a bit hard to check on your own because you need to turn the ignition on and check for the negative on pin 10. Obviously you can't do this with the relay disconnected as it won't power up the ecu so nothing will happen.

How much will one of these relays cost where you are? You don't need to go to Peugeot, go to a car spares shop, take your relay and they should be able to match it (if they're any good) If it's cheap enough perhaps we are wasting our time wondering if it's ok or not.

As for the pump, all the fuel and/or water probably drained out while we were looking at the relay so if you only ran it for a second or two perhaps the fuel didn't go through it yet. Maybe. Do you have something to pump this into?

[406owner2]

Thanks Steve, you say check for negative on pin 10, i guess you mean on the relay pin while it's connected to the plug ? Should not be a problem can just put the feeler on pin 10 where it's soldered at the back on the relay with ign on, i will go do that, if that's what you meant.

i can tell you that i get 12.12 volts on pin 2 while the relay is connected to the plug with ign on (i tested it)

I'm not sure what a relay would cost but one thing i do know Peugeot in SA is extremely expensive, so they will likely charge me an arm and a leg, your idea sounds good to try and take it to a good parts shop to try get a match so it doesn't have to be a peugeot relay ?

The spares shops is only open on weekdays, saturday till 1 at my branch, so will have to go check when they are open, my best bet will be to try our midas car part store.

"As for the pump, all the fuel and/or water probably drained out while we were looking at the relay so if you only ran it for a second or two perhaps the fuel didn't go through it yet. Maybe. Do you have something to pump this into?"

only a few drops out of both pipes where they connect to the filter, but the filter itself was full of fuel.

Yes i have a can ready to place it in the right manner when the fuel water comes out, but how to get the fuel flowing out from underneath is the question now.

[steve_earwig]

you say check for negative on pin 10, i guess you mean on the relay pin while it's connected to the plug ? Should not be a problem can just put the feeler on pin 10 where it's soldered at the back on the relay with ign on, i will go do that, if that's what you meant.

That will do, however if we're assuming the ecu runs the pump for a few seconds first to prime the system you'll have to move quite quickly...

i can tell you that i get 12.12 volts on pin 2 while the relay is connected to the plug with ign on (i tested it)

That's the supply for the relay from ignition switch, which is good.

I'm not sure what a relay would cost but one thing i do know Peugeot in SA is extremely expensive, so they will likely charge me an arm and a leg, your idea sounds good to try and take it to a good parts shop to try get a match so it doesn't have to be a peugeot relay ?

Good god no, Peugeot don't make them, they buy them in from someone like Valeo and put them in a Peugeot box with a huge price increase.

I've just been having a look, I suspect the relay won't be cheap so I think we need to make absolutely sure it is the problem.

I think we should be able to get the pump running now (connect 9 & 11) but I'm not overly keen on running water through it. Still, I can't think of any other way without removing the pump which looks like it'll be a pain.

[406owner2]

Thanks Steve

Tried to go down and do the checks, but it's too dark, get's dark here at 7:00
I know in Britain it gets darker later at night if i'm not mistaken ?

Almost fell asleep at the wheel before realizing 2 hours had passed ! thinking about why i'm not hearing that whistling sound, thinking what if the ecu
upon ignition only sends a signal to the 2nd relay to engage to activate the pump at the back, once it has confirmed the mechanism that makes the whistling sound has activated ?

Except for if the pump has something to do with that sound ?

it's just strange the sound it should make, sounds like something is "injecting" in the engine compartment. injectors ?

Ok i'll do as you say when daylight breaks tomorrow, however i have "forced" the second relay earlier on for at least 20 seconds, still nothing drained from the pipes underneath the car where i disconnected it from the fuel filter.

Does it need suction at first to function, (like a kreepy kraully/ barracuda in a pool needing to have fully submersed water in the pipe ?) thereafter will function on it's own ? (perhaps i should put the ign on with the pump functioning and suck on those pipes, till it start flowing ?)

Or is it suppose to force everything out on its own upon ign.

[lozz]

Sorry ihavent read all of it.

but inoticed above that you've had the pump working/heard it.

These pumps work off like a bucket, it fills the bucket first then it pumps it out,
bucket might hold around a pint or maybe slightly abit less,

so you've got to give that chance to fill first before it will pump out

[406owner2]

Thanks Lozz, the car used to get fuel to the engine with only one litre in it,
is it because it already had suction ? But is that suction not broken once the tank cap is opened up ?

I seem to recall the day this happened after cranking a while (before i added the water) the car did start but only running as if it was about to starve from fuel, so i think at this moment the engine itself is dry.

the reason i'm saying all these things is i literally can't put in too much petrol, too expensive, i need my car to do my job, without my job i can't fill the tank,
i can put in 3 litres max.

Would sucking on the fuel line underneath the car assist while the pump is on in getting the fuel to flow, (i have a little plastic ball pump which i could try insert into the pipe and pull it out) Kind of like how doctors pull blood from your veins like a syringe. If i can create a suction seal with my hand, but will sucking the pipe under the car work ?

I was very strongly considering just putting a vacuum cleaner on one of the pipes for the suction is so strong, just for a second or two, before the petrol actually flows out, however, the risk of getting petrol inside the vacuum cleaner's motor with sparks in there made me think twice, however just for a split second or so have that vacuum cleaner on that pipe.

But i guess the ball hand pump is my best idea so far if indeed the sucking would work ?

[steve_earwig]

I've seen a vacuum cleaner explode with petrol vapour Try the hand pump.

I don't think removing the cap will stop the pump sucking, they usually run with pressure in the tank if anything, unless they're ventilated to the atmosphere.

[lozz]

Hi,
as steve as said, don't use a vacume cleaner,the sparks created by the brushes inside it wouid surely blow your car up/or even yourself.
not worth the risk,

sucking on pipe's is a bit hazardous to your health,not only that it burns your lips if they come into contact with petrol/nasty headaches andBurping up petrol
fumes follow too, not very nice experience,

But if you've got somesort of suction device /syringe itd be worth atry but ithink it wouidnt work be too big and area for the syringe to work
the length of the fuel line is long,

idealy you want that pump in the tank to do the work,
but im not sure here as to wether you've had any life from it yet?