Rattle from engine on hard acceleration

[steve_earwig]

Well, no point in scrapping a car because of electronic gremlins with a perfectly good engine.

Still trying to find out about injectors, reconditioning vs. new.

Found a thread on Honest John that says the noisy bit is the solenoid control & control rod inside the injector and they don't change them when they're reconned, just the tip. The guy that started the thread had reconned ones fitted for 330 quid, still ouch but not as ouch as it could be.

Looking about for reconditioners I came across United Diesel, still giving nothing away but... The injectors for the HDi are also listed under Fiat, seems the Scudo and Ulysse 2.0 JTDs have them (& judging by the engine codes (RHX & RHZ) they also have the same lump). And what manufacturer did the man say had the cheapest spares in Cravatland? Fiat...

Thunderbolt: "That do raise interesting possibilities"

[Welly]

Funnily enough I happened to be stood next to a 52 reg estate the other day (it was actually a Hospital ambulance car) and it sounded dead rough on tickover sounded like that "tacka tacka" sound. I would surmise it would be a 90BHP version what with it belonging to a public service but it really made my car sound sweet

This has been mentioned before on here but it seems like there's good'uns and bad'uns with the HDi and you'll either have a long and happy relationship with it or a bitter and resentfull one

@ longy - I think everyone who's had a remap on here has reported better MPG! also wouldn't you agree that although engine manufacturers carry out extensive testing etc. they also have to cater for abusive drivers, extreme hot climates, cold climates, extended oil services etc. so they come up with an "all rounder" which they can rely on. With care a remaped engine should be just as reliable.

Imagine if the 406 HDi was released by Peugeot as having 140BHP then other makes would pitch in with "BHP wars" which goes against the whole Diesel idea. The remapping is a tiny market overall and will put more strain on stuff than the standard car but you're not always on full chat when driving these things and the benefits of more mpg appear to come from a tweeked or "improved" fuel map in cruising conditions.

Having said all that I don't think I would do it to my current car as I'm sure it would kill something (starting with the DMF).

[rapport25]

Totally agree welly dmf is the first thing that goes After that touch wood its as reliable as any 406

[Longintooth]

Hi guys
I agree with your comments entirely and I did say take it or leave it, since if you know exactly what you are doing with a remap you can achieve that tweak but as you remark other things will be out of kilter. This and other engines are a very finely balanced between engineering mechanical and electrical components because the green issues are pushing hard for change. Without all the data I would be very wary tinkering
since if something does go belly up it will be so much more difficult to correct. Take for instance this rattle - anyone trying to fix it will have a nightmare of a job if some parameters have been altered from the standard config. The DMF has been designed to match the harmonics created by the injection parameters and you will need to plonk the engine on a test rig to see what is happening with the balance etc and who but the manufactures have such facilities. Any how if any one with this rattle fixes it by servicing the injectors I would be very interested to know about it.

[steve_earwig]

Greetings, fellow victims. My car went to Purić today to have an inspection done on the injection system. They couldn't find anything wrong with it, the guy said they could try changing the injectors... 1,000Kn a piece (that's £111.448 in real money) for reconned ones but he's not sure if that's a good idea. He did suggest putting injection cleaner through it but I asked if that was ok with the cat and he said he didn't know. He then suggested I drive it until it manifests itself in a more apparent manner

What they did find is it's lost compression on my #1 cylinder (or #4 if you believe Pug, i.e. the one nearest the cam belt).

Leak off: 18 - 16 - 16 - 12 (is that right?)
Consumption: 25 - 30 - 25 - 25 (max 35ml)
Compression: 27.5 - 29 - 29.5 - 30 (min 27 bar)

I then thrashed it without mercy on the way home (don't they sound noisy at 5k?) but it didn't make any difference

Now, where did I put my lighter..?

[Longintooth]

Hi Steve
My first reaction is did they remove the injectors and test them, if not how can they possibly know if they are in good nick. Spray pattern and volume measured can only be done on a rig. The compression results would indicate that there is a discrepancy and should be attended if you care and want rectify it. Small as it is it indicates either a broken or sticking ring and possible a valve leaking. Non of these can be rectified by thrashing it. If it's an inlet valve you can listen at the inlet and hear it leak, if it's an exhaust you will hear it pop at the exhaust with a touch of blue smoke with each pop also an inlet leak will cause it to have an irregular beat at the exhaust. If it's a piston ring it will smoke blue consistently. With the latter you should consider two things - one, are you using the correct oil and quality. Two, Do you regularly run the motor above 2800 rpm(Diesels don't like revving). Oh and do ensure the engine does not overheat (main cause of broken rings). I refer to the injectors - the most essential thing to do when injectors are suspect is to test them - never simply change them it will not tell you anything except your wallet is emptying fast. If anyone can tell you that an injector is ok without doing this ask them how they do it and then let me know - I am always ready to learn new things.

[steve_earwig]

None of these can be rectified by thrashing it.

No spoor Mr Holmes. I was after the rattle, hey, I spent the last bit of cash I had on this car, I got the newest one I could find and it turns out to be an enourmous lemon so I think I could be excused from taking out my frustration on it a little.

Latest thought: The rattle is actually a hydaulic tappet (as I thought right at the beginning) and the drop in compression is something to do with it. Worries: the rattle goes at just over 3,000rpm; a leaky tappet would hold the valve closed so the compression would go up, not down; the loudest rattle is on the #4 injector (by the flywheel) not #1. Maybe the higher figure is because of the #4 tappet leaking and the cylinder is actually as f#cked as #1.

Plan: drive it until I can get both cars registered, then flog both and buy something with simpler technology, say, a tractor.

[Welly]

I wouldn't worry about suspected loss of compression, not with a well serviced HDi.

Anyway I understood a proper compression test has to be done over time to stabilise the readings i.e. the "other" cylinders get damn hot whilst waiting for their test.

We could embark on a huge programme of replacing all kinds of expensive stuff but we should remember that if the car runs well, returns decent MPG, idles evenly at rest etc. then leave the poor thing alone! we should be far more concerned about a non-runner or a non-booster etc. IMO

I am convinced that this sound is like Diesel pinking (or shortage of fuel) but it's meant to be like it! it's economical like it! have a listen to a Vauxhall CDTi or Ford and they sound worse and clatter like anything I think it's simply the sound of a Common Rail system and *very* lean fuelling.

[steve_earwig]

I think I'd feel happier about it if it was all 4, it sounds like just the one to me. It's this "wait 'til it manifests itself in a more apparent manner" that I worry about, how many times has something failed and I've realised that a bit of prevention would have been much easier and cheaper.

On the other hand...
New injector: £300
Louder stereo £150

[Longintooth]

Hi
Why testing and testing is so important - to eliminate as much as possible before you go out throwing your cash at it. You have now found you have a low compression on one cylinder and it is accompanied with a rattle. I would not rush out and buy new injectors on this. The injectors themselves do not rattle - the needle only lifts off the seat a minuscule and only for a fraction of a nano second, plus its against an enormous pressure - you would never hear any noise so forget that for a mo unless you think they a gummed up and need servicing. The common rail system is hugely quieter than any previous diesel engine concept - virtually no knock above idle. Diesels do not exactly derive their economy from purely a lean mix burn but it does have a volumetric advantage over a petrol. SI engines need to be throttled ( but there are concepts on the way to eliminate the throttle and fuel like a diesel) because the fuel is turned into a vapor prior to being sucked in the cylinder whereas a diesel actually injects a spray of fuel directly into the heated air of the compression. The injection pressures are about to be doubled in future (wow) and will be almost a vapor to the eye. So Steve you may have found your rattle but keep testing before you chuck it in the river. Try to eliminate the valves - with a petrol it was easier since you could just pull a plug and squirt some oil into the cylinder then test compressions, if it increased it would be rings broken, if nothing changed it would be valves leaking. Either way you would need to remove the head and while you were at it drop the sump and lift a piston to check it out. If you can't do it yourself scrap it because they will charge you a kings ransom or you could run it into the ground until it cracks up altogether. Depends what you value it at. Oh and the hydraulic valve adjustment would just tap like a tappet to wide if faulty - take the valve cover off and take a look.

[Welly]

If you can't do it yourself scrap it because they will charge you a kings ransom or you could run it into the ground until it cracks up altogether

On a 2004 model

[steve_earwig]

Might be sooner than you think...

...before you go out throwing your cash at it.

Ay, there’s the rub, no cash to throw anywhere anymore.

Depends what you value it at.

About 12,000€ (Sold to the man with the defective hearing aid.)

[steve_earwig]

I saw a D9 Rapier cruise past me this morning at about 5mph looking for a parking space and it sounded *exactly* like mine, we can't all have duff tappets! I still need to get someone to follow me to see if I'm blowing smoke (don't know anyone with a car and some spare time) but I don't think so, so I'm still at a loss with the compression issue. It would be nice if they were all the same but, according to Haynes it's all well within tollerances, so I'm just going to try to forget about it. I'm still getting 43.8 mpg at an average speed of 25mph (hmm, seems to have dropped recently for some reason ) and there aren't many medium to large cars that'll do that!

Anyway, I'm still thinking about sticking it in the paper with the other one when (if) I get them both registered, but then I'll have the traditional problem of what to replace it with: Avoid anything HDi like the plague (in fact, anything French), no VAGs and no blue ovals of crapness. Looking thru the papers for something in the early 2000s at a similar price that leaves me with 3 series Bimmers (do I have to make a deal with the devil to drive one? Oh look, the 320d can ingest part of the injection system and self-destruct, turbo problems, suspension problems, stuck egrs have the engine running on sump oil), Merc C class (early cars with no rust proofing, must have deal with devil to drive one, people will think I actually have some money, expensive spares), Ovlov V70 (suspension problems, injector problems, rubber core plugs??!), Toyota Avensis (yuck), Fiat Stilo ("A failed car. No reason to buy it rather than the better competition. Disastrous quality."), Mazda 6 (clutch problems, gearbox problems, rust!), there's loads of 156 SWs about (loads of stupid problems, bonnets do an MJB job if you're not careful... they're Fiats though, cheap spares, plenty to choose from, look gorgeous.. hmm. look very stupid with my 10 meter ladder on the roof ).

Better the devil you know...

[teamster1975]

I think you are better off sticking with what you've got Steve!!

[Longintooth]

Hi Steve,
40+ mpg is good for a 2 ltr and I bet with more attention to your right foot you will better it. I run a 3 series when I want to swank a bit and have found BMW very good on running repair - very little goes wrong until things really wear out. I bought the 406 to lump a small trailer around and go places during the day where I would not leave the Beamer - vandals love to have a go at them with coins etc and slam doors open in car parks.
Having said that I find the 406 a crisp and exhilarating ride on road holding and economy if you want it. The thing I have been really put off by is being stung for relatively simple repair that had to be done by a dealer. When I changed the clutch and turbo on the 406 it was not for the faint hearted having to drop the front chassis member and all that entailed. The Beamer is a traditional rear wheel drive so the clutch is straight forward to change but above all it keeps it simple. Some will argue that a front wheel drive has better handling with more under steer on power then going to oversteer on brake to get you out of trouble and I agree, but it depends what you want from a car. Peugeot have blown it as far as
I'm concerned - Shame really since they could give consideration to the used and tired motors and help those owners to repair them more economically themselves otherwise they are not economical to repair. It has always been the case that this end of the market relied on more DIY.