Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Discuss, ask, or get help with engine and mechanical queries in here.

Moderator: Moderators

Black Pearl
2.0 16v
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:59 pm
Location: Tamworth

Re: The HPi Misfire - help needed

Post by Black Pearl »

It has been ages since i changed the plugs meself, its a fair chance that ya got yaself a dud plug, i wasnt suspecting such a simple solution could cure the problem but it has on mine, no misfire since i changed the plugs. Other benifits of doing so have appeared as they should as well, there aint no hesitation up the powerband anymore and the MPG is a lot better than what it was before.

Hope finding the fault goes just as easy for you dairees, i was unsure it could be the plugs as it was only serviced april last year. The only thing i could think of why the sparkplugs went down is running the engine on a higher octance fuel ( bp ultimate ) in turn making the engine run hotter which slowly burnt away the electrode on the sparkplug, which it looked like it did. Or with the gap being so big that the heat has, say warped the electrode arm on the sparkplug making the gap incorrect and end up with shatty running conditions. Either way the problem is cured with changing the plugs. In my circumstance anyway, Hope its just as easy for you mate.

good luck 8)
User avatar
DaiRees
Site Admin
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales (God's Country!)

Re: The HPi Misfire - help needed

Post by DaiRees »

Well now I changed the plugs last weekend and touch wood the misfire hasn't been there since. Seems to be running a bit rougher though :roll: Only time will tell eh :roll:
Image
Playtime_Fontayne wrote:"Dai Rees Supplier of Fine Automobilia. Established 2007"
User avatar
steve_earwig
Moderator
Posts: 19813
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Jastrebarsko, Croatia http://www.jastrebarsko.hr/lokacija/

Re: The HPi Misfire - help needed

Post by steve_earwig »

[complete ignorance] You know that thing where the engine ecu "learns" to run just how you like it, does it try to learn how to run with duff plugs too? [/complete ignorance]
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007

The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
Black Pearl
2.0 16v
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:59 pm
Location: Tamworth

Re: The HPi Misfire - help needed

Post by Black Pearl »

Id imagine it would, as ive changed and buggered about with a few things in me engine, just like general maintenance sorta stuff. But for a test i took the car a drive on a set route with my induction kit newly fitted, returned home and reset the ECU, took it out again on the route, for a while it did run crap as i expected it to, so i went on the route again afte 20 mins or so of " bedding in " time. And noticed a very good improvement on acceleration and smoothness of the engine so it definetley done something. i did the same with the plugs, fitted em, ran it, bought it home and reset the ECU to compare the differences in engine manner. I do admit again it did make some sort of difference, wether the ECU monitors general running conditions and sorts a program out to suit driver and engine im unsure but now everytime i make a noticable difference to the engine, be it change an integral part to the engines system or i alter something i think that could be suspect to engine behavour i reset the ECU. Does seem to be a pain in the arse but when your faultfinding theres nothing worse than changing the part which does work fine, but its just not seeming to be calibrated by the ECU as it still thinks its knackerd and makes a program to suit the running conditions at the time. Up to yet of " common 406 faults " ive found it best to fit the part ( engine wise anyway ) and reset the ECU to learn whats changed and make it part of the engine again, not unlike a certain EGR valve :wink:
User avatar
DaiRees
Site Admin
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales (God's Country!)

Ye Olde HPi Misfire - Yup it's still there!

Post by DaiRees »

Hiya dudes, me again!

Since the last installment in this sorry tale the car ran with little to no hesitation for about 3000 miles after the last set of plugs was fitted. Then the problem started to creep back in....

After suffering a bit I took it to an independant Citroen and Peugeot specialist for a diagnostic and the computer said that my crank position sensor had an intermittent fault, so that's been changed with absolutely no effect. A return to the garage and another go on the computer came up with "No Fault Found" :frown: The guys said that without an indication from the computer there's nowt more they could do short of randomly changing expensive bits :cry: .

Now another couple of thousand miles has passed (were up to 7K since the last set of plugs were put in) and it's really starting to piss me off again! :evil:

Since the PC brigade have decreed that we can't use the word "brainstorming" any more, anyone fancy "thoughtshowering" :roll: this with me??

It only misfires below 3000 revs.
It only misfires under load.
Changing the plugs appeared to cure it temporarily.

So I'm thinking this time I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go for the coil pack. What do you lot reckon?
Image
Playtime_Fontayne wrote:"Dai Rees Supplier of Fine Automobilia. Established 2007"
Black Pearl
2.0 16v
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:59 pm
Location: Tamworth

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by Black Pearl »

Ayup dairees,

More misfire problems eh ? just when you thought it was safe to go above 2000 revs... i know the feeling :evil: especially with your symptoms are exactly what i had, i know ive commented before on here, but this time i have cured it on my car by doin the following, hope its useful to you, some things are granny sucking eggs. ive listed everything for you that i done on mine to cure it. with the symptoms being so similar as well its worth a try

this is what ive done so far :

Coilpack side :

Took the rubber sleeve off the HT springs, Stretched the spring to ensure a good electrical contact is made i stretched the spring to just come level to the bottom of the rounded collar opening on the sleeve, doused the springs in WD40 then applied some electrical conductive grease ( dow corning ) similar stuff ya put on battery terminals. Another thing to note is when you put the rubber sleeves back over the spring be sure the spring aint sitting on a little ledge inside the rubber sleeve. I found it best to pull the spring through with some snipe nose pliers completley out of the sleeve and let it recoil slowly back in

Sparkplug side :

The gapping on my new set of sparkplugs was completley out, i asked the tech dude at the peugeot dealer about gapping, he said about 1mm, with that in mind i set them to that setting, slightly tight sitting on the feeler guage as 1mm seems like a bloody lot of gap, anyways i done that meticulously and put em back in.

As a result the misfiring stopped, the only thing i would say if you wanna go down this route is to keep you eye on your sparkplug gaps, cus to me as far fetched as it sounds, the heat seems to warp the electrode arm and bugger up your gapping, as i said i set them to 1mm, i even micrometered the gap and it was bang on, after a while i took them out and checked again, theyd moved out to a gapping of around +.25mm.

other bits and pieces ( may not have anything to do with it but like i said ill list everything ive done ) :

took off the EGR valve, cleaned all that up and checked the linkage, as the one before it the linkage broke, Cleaned the MAF ( i think its the MAF, correct me if im wrong ) sensor in the throttle body, just after the air filter piperwork at the bottom of the throttle body intake, i cleaned it with degreaser, then an evaporative electrical spray.

So as a round about conclusion the coilpack HT springs are as you know a crap way of doing things, and a very weak point on the ignition system stretching them & making the entire tube conductive with using conductive grease does help, The gapping is give or take depending where you go and who tells you but 1mm gap seems to do the trick, but keep your eye on it cus mine did warp out a bit another weak point with the gap being big and the electrode arm quite long, maybe cus i run mine on a higher octane petrol ( sainsburys best ) :cheesy: praps making a run a bit too hot ? i dunno i just get a better mpg from it so ill carry on.

I hope some of this stuff helps ya out mate, for what its worth it has cured my misfiring problem doing that, i know its definetley something to do with the sparkplugs though moreso than the coilpack, cus not long after i gapped em, it reappeared, knowing what was going on i touched nothing but the sparkplugs, re-gapped them at tight 1mm ( tight feel on the feeler guage but not quite pinch tight ) and refitted em, took it out, and did everything i knew how to make it misfire and it didnt. the problem lies im pretty confident in saying is sparkplugs, as everything else i sorted prior to resetting the gapping again.

thats it thats me essay finished lol, hope some of it is of use, some of it blatant i know but often overlooked 8) good luck mate, let us know how ya get on
User avatar
steve_earwig
Moderator
Posts: 19813
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Jastrebarsko, Croatia http://www.jastrebarsko.hr/lokacija/

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by steve_earwig »

Maybe you could try cooler spark plugs (Then again, how much do the damn things cost these days? They're about 5 quid just for the lawnmower!)
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007

The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
User avatar
DaiRees
Site Admin
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales (God's Country!)

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by DaiRees »

Black Pearl wrote:Coilpack side :

Took the rubber sleeve off the HT springs, Stretched the spring to ensure a good electrical contact is made i stretched the spring to just come level to the bottom of the rounded collar opening on the sleeve, doused the springs in WD40 then applied some electrical conductive grease ( dow corning ) similar stuff ya put on battery terminals. Another thing to note is when you put the rubber sleeves back over the spring be sure the spring aint sitting on a little ledge inside the rubber sleeve. I found it best to pull the spring through with some snipe nose pliers completley out of the sleeve and let it recoil slowly back in

Sparkplug side :

The gapping on my new set of sparkplugs was completley out, i asked the tech dude at the peugeot dealer about gapping, he said about 1mm, with that in mind i set them to that setting, slightly tight sitting on the feeler guage as 1mm seems like a bloody lot of gap, anyways i done that meticulously and put em back in.
Pearl, you're a fekin' diamond!! :cheesy:

Right so I got the plugs out again and they were indeed overgapped, measuring at about 1.2mm when I checked them all to be 1mm when I put them in there back in March. They were actually a really nice colour though, so I gave them a good clean and regapped them to 0.9mm (figuring that they'll open out again pretty quickly anyway) and stuck them back in. Then turned my attention to the coil pack and followed your guidance above, the only thing I'm missing is the conductive grease, gonna have to get me some of that. I particularly liked the bit about pulling the springs through the rubber sleeve so that they aren't trapped behind the little ledge, I reckon that could be a key point :? .

Anyhow the upshot is that I've been running it around this afternoon and it's a million times better, been trying to provoke it but haven't managed a single missed beat. I know it's early doors and I'm touching wood as I type (well a close aproximation of wood sourced from Ikea :? ), but I'm feeling much much more confident right now about getting another few years out of the old bus 8) :P .

I'll keep y'all posted :wink:
Image
Playtime_Fontayne wrote:"Dai Rees Supplier of Fine Automobilia. Established 2007"
User avatar
DaiRees
Site Admin
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales (God's Country!)

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by DaiRees »

steve_earwig wrote:Maybe you could try cooler spark plugs (Then again, how much do the damn things cost these days? They're about 5 quid just for the lawnmower!)
The "dealer only part" original plugs are £10 summat plus VAT each :shock: :evil:

Mind you there's prolly about 12 perfectly good examples on the shelf in the garage that just need the gap closing a bit :oops: :oops:
Image
Playtime_Fontayne wrote:"Dai Rees Supplier of Fine Automobilia. Established 2007"
User avatar
steve_earwig
Moderator
Posts: 19813
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Jastrebarsko, Croatia http://www.jastrebarsko.hr/lokacija/

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by steve_earwig »

So, without the usual Pug mark up they're cheaper than the plugs for my Flymo!
Unskilled meddling sin©e 2007

The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
Black Pearl
2.0 16v
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:59 pm
Location: Tamworth

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by Black Pearl »

Glad to hear the advice was useful mate,

im pretty confident that doing what i listed for you cured my misfire, its been ages now since i done it and its stayed away. Meself i think its a combination of a crap HT spring design and the sparkplugs gapping creeping out somewhat. Hope it goes well for you. If it does reappear though check the gapping of the plugs first cus i went about redoing everything and for progressive faultfinding i near enough made myself start again lol, tit headish move i know but ah well ya live and learn and pass on ya what know to other folk :cheesy:

good luck though mate, what worked for me hopefully works for you
User avatar
Welly
The moderator formally known as Welton
Posts: 15033
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: East Midlandfordshire

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by Welly »

Good news Dai! that's exactly what this place is for 8)

I thought the plugs were "special" on the HPi's ?
Cars in my care:
2021 Kia Spottage 1.6 Pez Turbo Dual Clutch Gearbox Trickery
2013 Renner Twingo - donkey work
User avatar
DaiRees
Site Admin
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales (God's Country!)

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by DaiRees »

They are, kind of :? . They're just single electrode Bosch plugs with a narrow body and a bihex head, but I've tried several places now and they all tell me "dealer only". I did once get someone to source me a set that physically fitted but they were shyte, in fact they could be the root cause of all my problems. :?
Image
Playtime_Fontayne wrote:"Dai Rees Supplier of Fine Automobilia. Established 2007"
User avatar
Welly
The moderator formally known as Welton
Posts: 15033
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: East Midlandfordshire

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by Welly »

I think then that the HPi must run a high(er) compression ratio? the in-cylinder temps would be higher and special plugs needed!

In fact whilst writing this I googled "HPi compression ratio" and it seems the spark plug is crucial in these engines and plays a big part in the whole point of the engine design....http://sysdoc.doors.ch/PEUGEOT/hpi_2000 ... 850765.pdf
Cars in my care:
2021 Kia Spottage 1.6 Pez Turbo Dual Clutch Gearbox Trickery
2013 Renner Twingo - donkey work
User avatar
DaiRees
Site Admin
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:24 am
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales (God's Country!)

Re: Ye Olde HPi Misfire

Post by DaiRees »

That's a good read, excellent find Welly!! 8)

All this talk of new technologies and bespoke engine management systems doesn't make me nervous at all, really, not a jot.... :| :| :| :? :roll:
Image
Playtime_Fontayne wrote:"Dai Rees Supplier of Fine Automobilia. Established 2007"
Post Reply