Replaced rear shoes, now worse braking!

[djheath]

Grrr, I blooming hate drum brakes.

I;ve had a grinding sound when braking coming from the rear of my 406 which has drum brakes. So today I finally got the drums off and went about replacing the shoes and all the springs etc. All was fine with that job, but whilst doing it I noticed a few things. Firstly, both sides were filty inside the drums. Proper caked in muck and black dust - see pics. I expect some dust, but this was damp and gungy. I sprayed everything with brake cleaner and cleaned it all up and whilst looking at the cylinders got a lot of liquid coming out from the seals. I thought it was just residue from the brake cleaner and as I wiped and squeezed the rubber seals some more it soon stopped. All good I thought. I fitted new shoes and then the drum and then pulled the hand brake a few times to try and get the ratchet mechanism working properly. Would it work, would it bugger! So off the drums came again and I manually adjusted the (non)self- adjusting mechanism till it was a bit better.
I then set about the other side which was exactly the same. Caked in muck, but this time I didn't spray brake cleaner untril I looked at the seals on the cylinders. When I squeezed them, loads of greenish, oily liquid came out. I couldn't tell if it was brake fluid and thought it might be grease maybe in the cylinders. Anyway, I couldn't do anything about it today, and my brakes have always been spot on and I have never notcied the brake fluid level going down or any signs of leaks round the wheels. So I fitted new shoes again and then once again failed with the self adjusting mechanism and but everything back together again.

Skip to the end!
My problem is: When I got in the car to take it for a test drive, firstly, the handbrake is vertical!! No matter how much I yank it, it doesn't self adjust! - Is there anything I can do to remedy this? I wasn't this bad before I started this!!

Secondly, the brakes are all spongy and worse than before! It seems I can brake and get a good response, then the pedal sinks abit very slowly and I can push harder which gives me more resistance on the pedal. I still stop fine, but it feels a bit hit and miss - is this a sign that the cylinders are leaking!!? Wouldn't I be losing lots of fluid though?

Please see the pics of one of the wheels and see what you think. I tooks pics before hand to see where evrything went when putting it back together, so they aren't great. As you can see, there doesn't look to be any brake fluid on anything and I only got the "greasy liquid" coming out when I pushed the seals on the cylinders about.

Any thoughts on: 1. How to get a decent handbrake again.
2. What to do about the crap braking that has resulted from putting in new shoes!? (I am thinking its new cylinder time, just to be sure, yeah?! *sigh*)

Sorry for length!!

David.

[jasper5]

Firstly, you have introduced air into the system by squeezing the rubber seals on the cylinders.
What you need to do is fit new brake cylinders and bleed the brakes.
Next, with the drums off, pull on the handbrake and see if the levers are being pulled by the cables, ie, check that the cables have not come off from the linkages on the shoes.
When you are happy that the handbrake is working, you need to screw up the adjusting screws on the brake shoes...in your picture you will see an oblong hole with a ratchet screw, with a small flat blade screwdriver turn the ratchet screws from bottom to top (they may be tight, if they are try to adjust them with pliers or tap the screwdriver on the ratchet with the heel of your hand)turn them about 4 clicks at a time until the drum goes on with the shoes just catching the drum, be patient.Once you have set the shoe adjustment, adjust the cable under the car, two 10mm spanner size nuts locked together(it may be rusty so free it off with WD40 or similar).You will not adjust the handbrake by just pulling it up, the adjusters don't work like that.

After bedding the shoes in for a short while the handbrake will come up higher, when this happens repeat the adjustment inside the brake drum then adjust the handbrake cable (you may not need to after the shoes are adjusted).

Be very careful working on brakes if you have limited ability!!

[DiscoPol]

I feel wiggy about to comment?

this is one of his "favourite" subjects

[djheath]

Firstly, you have introduced air into the system by squeezing the rubber seals on the cylinders.
What you need to do is fit new brake cylinders and bleed the brakes.
Next, with the drums off, pull on the handbrake and see if the levers are being pulled by the cables, ie, check that the cables have not come off from the linkages on the shoes.
When you are happy that the handbrake is working, you need to screw up the adjusting screws on the brake shoes...in your picture you will see an oblong hole with a ratchet screw, with a small flat blade screwdriver turn the ratchet screws from bottom to top (they may be tight, if they are try to adjust them with pliers or tap the screwdriver on the ratchet with the heel of your hand)turn them about 4 clicks at a time until the drum goes on with the shoes just catching the drum, be patient.Once you have set the shoe adjustment, adjust the cable under the car, two 10mm spanner size nuts locked together(it may be rusty so free it off with WD40 or similar).You will not adjust the handbrake by just pulling it up, the adjusters don't work like that.

After bedding the shoes in for a short while the handbrake will come up higher, when this happens repeat the adjustment inside the brake drum then adjust the handbrake cable (you may not need to after the shoes are adjusted).

Be very careful working on brakes if you have limited ability!!

Thanks Japser. Great post. Firstly, I am quite a competent diy mechanic, but sometimes need a little help, so thanks!

I didn't realise the adjusters didn't adjust with the handbrake lever, Haynes says so, but your comments seem a lot more meanigful and a lot clearer. Out of interest, how have I introduced air in they system by playing with the seals? All I did was push the seals on the cylinders a bit, I wasn't trying to peer under them or anything.

Also, one of your comments might explain the bad pedal travel I have and thats, that I didn't adjust the shoes after I fitted them. I manually turned the adjusting screws out a bit but obviously not enough since I thought they would automatically adjust like Haynes says. So I definately need to do that.

I will look at new cylinders too. You definitly reckon they need to be changed? As I say, the brake fluid level has never gone down since I renewed the brake fluid in a service this same time last year? I hate changing cylinders!!

Thanks again!

[jasper5]

Sorry, didn't mean any offence, just my poor way of writing a disclaimer I'm always a bit wary of advising on braking issues.

Anyway, I was thinking you might have let air in the cylinders by squeezing the rubbers, depends if you pushed the pistons in and out, but they need changing for sure, I wouldn't have a leaking cylinder on my car, it definitely isn't safe to leave leaking cylinders on the car.

I don't understand what Haynes are on about, you have to set up the shoes by adjusting them, then set up the handbrake by adjusting the cable, the only time you will automatically adjust the handbrake by pulling it up and down is with some disc brake pad operated handbrakes, (or perhaps the old Mondeo type of ratchet adjuster in the cable) you have to lever the pads out a little with a screwdriver then pump the footbrake until it gets firm, then pull the handbrake up and down a few times, sometimes you just pump the footbrake and the adjustment is done (disc brake pad types).
You could try bleeding the brakes if you are going to delay fitting new cylinders, for yours and any passengers safety, I would replace those cylinders.

Good luck with it.

[steve_earwig]

Plus you'll be buying another set of brake shoes...

Hold on Jasper, are you thinking drum-in-disk? The (only) drum brakes are supposed to be automatic

If they're anything like my Avengers' if there's too much play the adjusters don't return properly so they never adjust up, I used to have to take almost all the play out before putting the drums on, as Jasper suggests, by turning the little knurled nuts. Make sure they turn freely and resist the urge to smear the teeth with copperslip as this was another excuse for them not to work.

[jasper5]

Well, the shoe adjusters are supposed to be automatic, but you must set them up after you fit new shoes...they wont adjust automatically in that situation....in my experience these so-called 'automatic adjusters' always need adjusting after a few thousand miles, but the handbrake is definitely not automatically adjusted, unless you adjust the shoes inside the drum, adjusting the shoes adjusts the handbrake, which I guess is where they get the automatic bit from.
After the shoes bed in, the shoe adjusters will need setting up again.

These type of shoe adjuster are common on Ctroen Saxo, earlier Peugeots like the 106, Renault Clio, and a few others, they are supposed to adjust automatically, but as I said, they always need adjusting, especially when you change the shoes, pulling the handbrake up and down will not adjust the shoes.

I may just be being cynical, but it's just my experience of these adjusters.

[StevieboyTD]

I don't think i've ever had working "automatic" adjusters on a handbrake, no matter what i've been driving.

[steve_earwig]

I have but they're always temperamental , on my first Tiger I managed to fit manual ones from a Mini. No further issues

[djheath]

Thanks all for your help. I took the drums off today, replaced the cylinders and adjusted everything properly. All now working perfectly. thanks for your help.

[steve_earwig]

Splendid

[DiscoPol]

Well done that man!

[jasper5]

Glad you got it sorted