406 2.0 HDI 53 plate starting problem

[RossMac]

Hello There,

I have a 406 HDI and I'm having difficulty starting the car first thing in the morning,it will turn over for a while before finally catching, i have changed the glowplugs and made no difference.
Once the car has been started it will be fine for the rest of the day and then next morning same again.

My 406 dosen't have a lift pump in the tank as far as Im aware, it has a primer bulb next to the fuel filter and i have been told that it is a siemens system model.

My understanding of the fuel system is that there must be a vaccum in the fuel system to prevent the diesel running back to tank, i think i must have a slight leak in the fuel system which is allowing air in (but not diesel out) and letting diesel run back to tank overtime (overnight).

I have pumped the primer first in the morning, prior to attempting to start and it felt empty and then it fills with diesel and car starts no problem. which makes me think the there is a slight leak under the bonnet.

Is this a common problem eveyone knows about except me , has anyone got any advice on where to start checking
or another advice.


As a matter of interest when changing the glowplugs and it made no difference I then checked for 12v at the plugs when the key was turned to the 2nd position and got 0 volts, i only got 12v when the car was running.
This is different to my wee N reg 306 where i get 12v when key in 2nd position to allow pre-heat.
I have also read on-line at http://peugeot.mainspot.net/peugeot_406.htm
that the 406 HDI dosent have a preheat here is the text from the site.

The 406 was most commonly supplied with a diesel engine. The original turbo diesel engine was replaced in 1999 by the superior HDi unit. Although the HDi offered greater refinement, noticeably improved fuel economy, plus a common rail system (which means the engine does not have to be preheated before starting), the HDi engines tended to lack the performance of the old turbo diesel range, with one exception being the 2.2 L HDi. By 1998, the 406 was one of the most popular diesel cars in Europe, an accolade it still boasts in 2006, fully ten years after its launch - a time when most other cars are starting to fade.


any advice to my problem or point of interest with the glowplugs would be much appreciated.

Ross

[Doggy]

I've no personal experience of the Siemens system, but the most likely problems are probably a poorly sealed fuel filter housing or loose / perished hose connections - might be worth swapping the fuel filter anyway to ensure you'ev got a seal in good nick.

Regarding the glow plugs, HDi's, being direct injection, are far less dependent on them for starting and only energise them pre-start for very short periods unless the temperature is very low. They do however, tend to keep them on for some seconds during and after starting. The glow pugs are controlled by the ECU, rather than the timer gadget on your 306. The glow plug warning light, (as you may have guessed), is for driver information and isn't actually lit at exactly ther same time as the plugs are energised.

Hope that mkes sense?

[Welly]

The glow plugs are only enabled for pre-start below certain ambient temperatures but they do run for a bit when you start up for emissions purposes (helps with combustion) there was a table around somewhere which showed the temperatures and glowplug running times.

Not sure why you're having starting trouble but your theory of a leak sounds about right. To be fair the siemens 90bhp system is kinda rare here

One thing I can say is try to limit the amount of cranking time if you can because the fuel pump won't like any lack of lubricating diesel passing through

[RossMac]

Thanks for your replies alot of good information

I bought a new fuel filter tonight after work,it came with a new housing seal and a couple of blue plastic things which If im honest not sure what they are for.
will fit tomorrow and let you know if there is any improvement.

regarding the glowplugs, this would make sense and would explain how i wasn't getting a voltage.
I have never actually saw a glowplug indicator light on the dash and a friend of mine has a 52 plate 406 HDI (siemens model also) and he has never seen an indiactor light either
dont know if the siemens model possibly dosent have an indicator light ?

anyway my main concern was the fuel problem, will report back tomorrow

thanks again

Ross

[Doggy]

I think the 'blue plastic things' are blanking plugs to keep the fuel connectors clean while you swap the filter, (I can never get them to work either).

Couldn't tell you on the Siemens / glow plug light question, but in this weather, the light on a Bosch system will have gone out before you can start it cranking, it's easy to miss altogether.

[sirwiggum]

If its a 2 port Siemens fuel filter housing, they're like rocking horse excrement in that they are hard to find.

Special order from stealers, couple of days, £80 lighter.

[jasper5]

The one with the primer bulb is a 3 pipe system with a large, plastic, screw-on ring that holds the filter in, my old 2001, 90 had this type, about £50 odd at the dealers for the full filter housing, about 8 quid for a filter element....ignore those plastic plugs they do nothing..... they can be a pig to bleed, I recommend that you point the car downhill before attempting to bleed the system.
On the 2 pipe system there is no need to replace the filter housing unless you break it, they are the easiest of the filter elements to replace.

I had a similar starting problem to this over the winter with my Expert 90 HDi, I tried lots of things to sort it...by the way, mine has the high pressure system fitted, so fuel was getting there alright...I ended up changing the battery, a new battery made all the difference, started first time every time since, I thought my battery was good, but the new battery solved the problem.

[RossMac]

Just to feedback.

Problem sorted, changed the fuel filter, which i was surprised was filthy, first time i have seen a dirty fuel filter, any time i've changed one in the past it has always been clean, but i've only had this car 1 year and previous owner could have ran about on empty all the time sucking up all the muck in the botom of the tank.anyway replaced the filter housing seal between the screw on lid and the vessel (old one looked ok) and haven't had any problems since,car starts instantly.

prior to replacing the filter and seal i always had a stream of air bubbles in my fuel line after filter and worse when i revved the car up, this is now gone.

The only thing i was surprised at was there is no bleed nipple to remove the air in the line, my wee 306 has a nipple after the filter , i had a bit of a job trying to start car afterwards, i had a friend pumping the primer bulb while i turned over the engine and finally it caught.

Is there an easier way ?
read on one of the posts by Jasper to point the car down hill (wish i had read this before doing the job) but where does the air go? does it just get sucked in to the engine and dispersed through the exaust valves ?.

Anyway thanks again for all advice ,it was greatfully received

Ross

ps filter was only £6.95 from a local car accessory shop and they had it in stock.

[Welly]

Nice one, glad you got it sorted

[sirwiggum]

I had similar issues.

Mine had the wrong fuel filter housing on - the 3 port Siemens instead of the hard to find 2 port.

The 3rd unused port was capped off, but this was letting air bubbles in, which got worse and worse until it wouldn't start at all.

The air bubbles in the line were visible, if it was running and I pushed the cap tight onto the filter housing, the bubbles disappeared.

New fuel filter housing 2 port Siemens part number 190162 solved this.

As for starting - I pumped the bulb before I started, until it seemed like I had got most of the air.

Then, I turned the ignition on, left for 10 seconds, off for 5 seconds - repeated this 5 times to try and pressurise the system. After that, started no problem.

[jasper5]

Just to feedback.


Is there an easier way ?
read on one of the posts by Jasper to point the car down hill (wish i had read this before doing the job) but where does the air go? does it just get sucked in to the engine and dispersed through the exaust valves ?.

As I said try to point the car downhill, the diesel will flow with gravity so easier to bleed (you have to do this on Ford diesels as well).
Leave off the pipe that goes to the pump and put your finger over the pipe end at the filter housing, when you pump air, let go of the bulb and remove your finger, keep pumping and putting your finger over the pipe until diesel starts to be pumped out.
I also fill up the filter housing with injection cleaner before bleeding.